How hard would it be to... (full build imaginings)

[RedDjinn]

Nexus, if you do go this path keep/detail everything! if someone else goes this path u can sell them the designs... Make back some money back from your project , teaming with Troy to help fab parts up he will get $$ out of it too, if not with you with others knocking on his door

[darkness]

Not sure if its been mentioned, but the jdm market did have awd 6 wagons (non turbo). A mate has one here in nz. What differences there are in diffs and gearbox, I don't know.

[RedDjinn]

Not sure if its been mentioned, but the jdm market did have awd 6 wagons (non turbo). A mate has one here in nz. What differences there are in diffs and gearbox, I don't know.

Dont forget about the US V6 6's.. supercharge one of them

[shakespeare]

That idea is crazy. I love it.

Not knowing if there is any differences in the actual floorpan makes a exact plan of attack a bit more difficult. Must remember the little things like mounting points may/will not be there on a wagon floor, then there is things like a hump to fit the diff etc, the best option if that was the case would be to unpick the floorpans and swap. Without access to chassis jigs i wouldn't even consider this.

Other option.

Rather than turning a Wagon into a MPS, why not turn a MPS into a wagon?

That would solve the vast majority of structural reinforcement issues aswell as most engineering issues such as fuel tank, mountings etc.
With a written off wagon (probably more common than a MPS) some creative welding and measuring should see it relatively easily done.

Other advantage to that would be the legalities of it, i'm not sure, you would have to check, but i'm sure that the fun police (engineers and RTA) would look more kindly at a MPS with a hatch welded onto the back than a Mazda 6 converted to AWD and turbo charged. Yes, technically much the same, but we know how government departments are.......

I love this idea too Get a 6MPS and bolt on a wagon rear A body builder could do a lot of the work, which leaves you time to work on the twin charging aspect!

[Nexus]

US spec V6 is an interesting idea for the drivetrain, but passing ADR for an engine/vehicle combo that was never released in any form in AU would be a significant hurdle I expect. You would prob want to start with a California spec vehicle...I'd rather stick with the worked 4 starting from AU spec.

Nexus, if you do go this path keep/detail everything! if someone else goes this path u can sell them the designs... Make back some money back from your project , teaming with Troy to help fab parts up he will get $$ out of it too, if not with you with others knocking on his door

Absolutely. I was going to suggest that we'd need a decent video CAM to document the build. Submit it to channel 7 afterwards as an AU "monster garage" pilot!

Are you still stuck on the idea of twin charging? I can't go that far.
Otherwise, go for a stage 3 with built motor.
Bolt it all in, transfer the brakes etc. Simple build, then a towbar won't even be considered by DOT.

I'm not completely set on TwinC. I just really like the idea, especially the possibility of reclaiming pumping losses through intake recirculation --> turbo. I'd be aiming for the sustained high boost with the same curve as OEM, just more of it. Don't care if it peters out @ 5500-6000 as the OEM tune does, because the SC moves everything down the rpm range ~500rpm. Obviously coming time to tune that would be something to look very close at low rpm boost conditions, but the control mechanisms are there; the SC bypass can function as an emergency high-boost "pop-off" valve, too, making the tuning safer - can't overboost and pop while tuning.

I think if I was to R+D the twincharging, it'd be after everything is on the road with a near stock engine. I would probably install it with the OEM turbo first, examine how the Tc behaves under twincharged conditions and then maybe resize the compressor wheel if necessary. I would probably pursue that in the long term just for the enjoyment of engineering it.

First things first. Document the requirements for the wagon build as far as practical without having the wagon on hand...

[Nexus]

Step 1 : Build MPS6 Avant
Step 2 : Attend Targa Tas

Stand back and watch mazda execs drool over what should have been.

P.S. Any chance someone could grab a happy snap of the MPS6 behind-seat boot bracing? I imagine it's similar to the boot brace I currently don't have installed. Which hasn't been sold, so maybe I'll install it.

Re: unpicking the pan : If I was going to go that far, and all I can see is $ down that road - not rich enough for that just yet, I suspect - if I was going to unpick the pan, I'd go the whole hog and :

Two door (3 actually) "shooting brake" four seat wagon. Actually I wouldn't because it'd look like a hearse. But something way sillier than twincharged wagon!

As it is I'd consider deleting the rear drivers side passenger door functionality if allowed - weld it up : long seamless panel work, triangle rear quarter-window delete - passengers can get out on the passenger side.

[kmh001]

P.S. Any chance someone could grab a happy snap of the MPS6 behind-seat boot bracing? I imagine it's similar to the boot brace I currently don't have installed. Which hasn't been sold, so maybe I'll install it.

There are 4 diagonals, this is the first useful pic from a google search.

[TD]

Floorpan is key, forget about all that bracing stuff until the end, it has nothing to do with the execution, it's just bracing. You need to be able to bolt up the 6 MPS rear subframe into the wagon chassis. This is the KEY item. If that can't be done easily it's way too much effort.

I reckon it will bolt in based on past experience and what I've seen with the way Mazda do their designs.

If I were to ballpark a full conversion based on a 6 MPS with a decent drivetrain and you having some modicum of skill twirling a spanner for much of the work you're looking at $8-15k to do it plus donor vehicles. Paying others will blow that budget out massively.

[bd581]

What sort of time frame are you looking at for this project?
If its not a right away kind of thing, have you looked at the new shape mazda 6 wagon?
When your ready to attack, they might have depreciated in value enough that you could use one.
Now that would be showing Mazda what "could have been"

Also, if it works with a Gen 2 shape wagon, can you pencil me in for one aswell?

[Nexus]

Good point. I'm going to visit some car yards and look at the boot + floorpans. That will be - after I've found a brisbane pad...

Floorpan is key, forget about all that bracing stuff until the end, it has nothing to do with the execution, it's just bracing. You need to be able to bolt up the 6 MPS rear subframe into the wagon chassis. This is the KEY item. If that can't be done easily it's way too much effort.

I reckon it will bolt in based on past experience and what I've seen with the way Mazda do their designs.

If I were to ballpark a full conversion based on a 6 MPS with a decent drivetrain and you having some modicum of skill twirling a spanner for much of the work you're looking at $8-15k to do it plus donor vehicles. Paying others will blow that budget out massively.

---------- Post added at 01:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:11 AM ----------

It occurs to me that an MZR-CD 6 (turbo diesel) wagon would be the ideal subject, floorpan permitting etc., becuase if my recollection is correct, the diesel 3 and 6 have much of the MPS bracing in place.

Anyone interested in an MZR-CD sedan?

[RadiantKnackers]

Instead of twin charging, have you thought about sequential turbos?

Might make a more attainable and less complicated target for your low rev power requirements.

Im loving the concept of this project by the way, really out there mate

[RedDjinn]

This is a way out there but would kill myself for not mentioning it.... Full Carbon fibre 6 Wagon! take a mps 6 cut the body off, mold a new body or mold it to the new 6 shape

[Nexus]

This is a way out there but would kill myself for not mentioning it.... Full Carbon fibre 6 Wagon! take a mps 6 cut the body off, mold a new body or mold it to the new 6 shape

Should I happen upon the resources, I think this would be a very appropriate build project to celebrate with! I've got several things I would prototype, including a replacement for the clutched AWD solution that mazda uses. Damn that's some dosh though.

On the more practical side, CF roof skin and tailgate, perhaps.

Instead of twin charging, have you thought about sequential turbos?
Might make a more attainable and less complicated target for your low rev power requirements.
Im loving the concept of this project by the way, really out there mate

That's a good idea. The #1 reason to consider this is the potential disparity between reliability of the solutions. I'm not concerned about the internals as such - built to meet spec; rather the SC belt. It would be a good idea with the SC solution to dummy up the serpentine belt configuration you intend to use, and then test it with electric motors driving the "crank" and braking the "SC" shafts - for extended periods of time simulating heavy load conditions and hard driving. And you should be doing this in a climate controlled environ simulating the engine bay temps....The belt is likely to be the bane of an SC solution, and probably difficult to get right first time.

As far as complexity goes, I'm not sure it's actually less complicated. The extra plumbing and any control valving has just relocated from the intake to the exhaust. But I'm very curious. I would definately flesh this out as an option before commiting to an SC.

So let's do that... let's hear some suggested biturbo configurations. I imagine it might be worth looking at the setup on the biturbo VW Amarok...

[Nexus]

Haven't found a diagram of the VW setup yet.

It is a good config for hauling from low rpm. I think twincharging is a better setup for doing that with a high performance edge - twinC will recover pumping losses. Not sure if it'll recover all of them, but it definately will recover some, potentially more. This TT example kinda makes a mash of exhaust flow to achieve it's end - the twincharging solution, there's some airflow mashing going on in the SC recirculation path, but that isn't anywhere it will have a detrimental effect - these are simply the pumping losses that the turbo will recover some or all of, even at closed throttle/cruise...whereas TT will never recover the losses that the necessary restrictive flow exhaust will impose. It may well overcome those losses, and perform very well, but it won't recover them, it will only add to exhaust pumping losses. I expect. Happy to be corrected.

[laser beam]

Not sure if this would be of any use, but I found the engine management handbook for bmw's n54 (tt) - http://www.1addicts.com/goodiesforyou/n54-2.pdf

[blackbetty]

I love this idea too Get a 6MPS and bolt on a wagon rear A body builder could do a lot of the work, which leaves you time to work on the twin charging aspect!

I love that idea too, would be my ideal car, the only thing I dont like about my mps6 is that I wish it was more practical, haveing far more practical cars in the past

[rfzd]

As great as the idea is and I would love to see it, why not just make life easy and look at a Nissan Stagea. They be wagons with power, and not all that many kicking around really. Still good at spooking

[johnymps]

Good luck with the project it would be epic to see a nice one cruising around ! All the best

[2000MNLESS]

Not sure if this has been mentioned but have you considered the possibilty of grafting a wagon rear end onto a 6MPS with a destroyed rear? So basically look to finish the existing 6MPS at the B-Pillars and going from there?? looking at a side on picture of both vehicles the main difference is in the rear pillars.. even the rear doors of both are very similar, main difference being the rear quarter glass. I'd assume that the general profile of the A pillars and curvature of connecting runners would be predominately the same in the front for both cars?

At least this way you'll avoid having to repath all the wiring and associated harnesses etc.

Something like a unibrace could be deployed to regain some of the lost rigidity from the lack of the factory rear brace. Many people run the Unibrace in the Golf, works a treat if you have the rear seats removed since they run a torsion beam through them.



Hardest part will be devloping the rear section of the interior to make it appear 'from factory'.

My 2c

[Nexus]

Thanks for the input, everyone. I have thought about grafting; I think it would be better to start with two cars and finish with two cars - yes, it's a lot of swapping of parts and wiring looms, but I'd feel the end product(s) would have more integrity for it. It also makes it easier to maintain a stock appearance. At this stage, I am considering some custom bracing that will achieve the desired ends without intruding overtly into the cargo space. It'll double as a mounting and housing solution for 36AH of reserve batteries for the electronics that I've prototyped in the 3. They've saved me once already from a flat battery too. The strictest interpretations of mounting generic batteries requires them to have a panel isolating them from the passengers. So let's add one. Bracing solution is intended then to sit mostly below the cargo floor (low profile batteries); I may get something fabricated for the 3 too.

It'll be a few months before I can get started...was eyeing off an MZR-CD wagon today.

P.S. That's some serious bracing!