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Thread: ECU Modifications: Soft V's Hard

  1. #1
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    Default ECU Modifications: Soft V's Hard

    Lazydog's post got me thinking about this...

    What I mean here is the pro's and con's of Controllers V's Flashes...

    Such as CP-E and the upcoming COBB, against Piasani and the other upcoming flashes.

    The actually outcome of this discussion will hopefully result in a table for cool people (such as me!) to review and look at what mods they want, how much they want to spend on a ECU mod, and what gains they can expect...I know I live in a deluded world, but I also live in hope...

    This is not a battle ground people, just looking for facts and which application suits what level of mods and what dyno gains actual users have experienced...discuss discuss discuss...

  2. Default

    I think Xede speaks for itself - I refer to the Dyno graph thread. TBE + CAI + Xede for a mere 206kW at the wheels.

    I hate being a pessimist, but still havent seen an Aussie Dyno with V3 Piasini so theres not much real time proof out there apart from feel & word of mouth.

    It would be great to make an apples to apples dyno comparisson (TBE + CAI + V3) to the Xede results, because I'm interested to combine both Xede and V3 to see what happens
    Last edited by Wardski; 12-11-2008 at 07:39 AM.

  3. #3

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    1: Cobb has been tested against the Piasini flash in the USA. I know the tester. Piasini is still better.

    2: A controller is the best way to confuse the ECU, and make sure that it is NOT capable of making correct decisions based on sensor feedback. The single most popular method of tuning worldwide is to do the ECU. It's not interceptors. Note:I certainly accept they work within their limitation.

    3: Chiptorque were going to buy the Piasini technology. We refused them access as they sell their own units. There is no way to protect ourselves from reverse engineering our work. They are just going to have to figure it out themselves.

    4: In the short time we have been actually selling Mazda tunes, well over 400 cars worldwide have been done by Piasini. In just over two months here, I have personally supplied 10 files to Mazdas here in Oz. That's from NOTHING to now ten cars.

    5: No aftermarket controller can modify the throttle.

    6: People that believe they MUST have a little box that can flash their cars are in the severe minority. This is a FACT. There is little reason to do this other than the 'feelgood' one. And that is what marketing plays on. This is direct experience from many Tuners worldwide. Most people go and get it done. Few actually buy units.

    7: One consideration with handheld units is reliability. They are actually very cheap. If you mess up the write to your ECU, sorry, but you are kinda screwed. Especially if you are in SA, and you bought the unit from QLD. With the professional tools we use, they have recovery modes should the worst happen.

    Here endeth my rant.

  4. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sassimac View Post
    1: Cobb has been tested against the Piasini flash in the USA. I know the tester. Piasini is still better.

    2: A controller is the best way to confuse the ECU, and make sure that it is NOT capable of making correct decisions based on sensor feedback. The single most popular method of tuning worldwide is to do the ECU. It's not interceptors. Note:I certainly accept they work within their limitation.

    3: Chiptorque were going to buy the Piasini technology. We refused them access as they sell their own units. There is no way to protect ourselves from reverse engineering our work. They are just going to have to figure it out themselves.

    4: In the short time we have been actually selling Mazda tunes, well over 400 cars worldwide have been done by Piasini. In just over two months here, I have personally supplied 10 files to Mazdas here in Oz. That's from NOTHING to now ten cars.

    5: No aftermarket controller can modify the throttle.

    6: People that believe they MUST have a little box that can flash their cars are in the severe minority. This is a FACT. There is little reason to do this other than the 'feelgood' one. And that is what marketing plays on. This is direct experience from many Tuners worldwide. Most people go and get it done. Few actually buy units.

    7: One consideration with handheld units is reliability. They are actually very cheap. If you mess up the write to your ECU, sorry, but you are kinda screwed. Especially if you are in SA, and you bought the unit from QLD. With the professional tools we use, they have recovery modes should the worst happen.

    Here endeth my rant.
    Dyno graphs, dyno graphs (is there an echo in here?)

  5. #5

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    BTW, the whole world does not revolve around dyno charts. This is such a bull**** argument. All it boils down to in the long run is some wally on a forum being able to say he has more power than the next.

    Tunes are NOT about being the most powerful car on the block. It is about a driving experience. It absolutely pisses me off when all people care about is the final figure. How many of you actually drive your car at 6000rpm in forth gear? And if you do, you're bloody INSANE.

    The people that buy a tune based on a dynocharts are typically only interested in boasting about how much power they have. This is MY experience. Funnily enough, nearly all the people I have sold a tune to (over 50) never queried me about charts.

    I seriously doubt the over 400 people that bought Piasini tunes considered dyno charts.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wardski View Post
    Dyno graphs, dyno graphs (is there an echo in here?)

    And you just proved my point......

  7. #7
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    Default

    We're just lazy

  8. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sassimac View Post
    BTW, the whole world does not revolve around dyno charts. This is such a bull**** argument. All it boils down to in the long run is some wally on a forum being able to say he has more power than the next.

    Tunes are NOT about being the most powerful car on the block. It is about a driving experience. It absolutely pisses me off when all people care about is the final figure. How many of you actually drive your car at 6000rpm in forth gear? And if you do, you're bloody INSANE.

    The people that buy a tune based on a dynocharts are typically only interested in boasting about how much power they have. This is MY experience. Funnily enough, nearly all the people I have sold a tune to (over 50) never queried me about charts.

    I seriously doubt the over 400 people that bought Piasini tunes considered dyno charts.
    For someone who sells this flash, you're going to have to learn how to sell it properly without the negative abberations, and getting pissed off. You're more of a tech guy, not a PR guy thats for sure.

    I know for a fact that for me, dynos are important (and not for the bull**** argument or mines bigger than yours syndrome) - and I'm a potential customer. You should listen to feedback mate, before fobbing us all off, stamping your feet.....

    2000MN is at least honest about it - I'd buy the flash from him anyday, and throw in a carton of the gold stuff for his efforts. 3 cheers for Corey!
    Last edited by Wardski; 12-11-2008 at 08:12 AM.

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    Whoever thought of this thread is brilliant.

    Dyno's are not everything, I agree with that...what they do do is give confidence that the buyer is getting what they paid for...

    Example- my butt dyno tells me my corksport exhaust gives me 40kw of power, but I know my butt dyno needs recalibration urgently as it is so far out of whack...

    I think everyone just wants supporting data to back up the great claims that are being made...

  10. #10
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    Default

    Lets not end up like 'other forums' in our first week.

    Lets all try to be nice

  11. Default

    Agreed. HOT needs to COOL down

    now...

  12. #12

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    Sassi I'm a big fan of what the Piasini flash and you setting up a flash network, have done, so please don't take this as me trying to tear you down, as these are just my thoughts in response to your post which I feel are biased and one sided. This forum needs non biased opinions. Please lets stick to facts.

    1: Cobb has been tested against the Piasini flash in the USA. I know the tester. Piasini is still better.
    I'm sure you don't want to get into a pissing contest, but by stating Piasini Flash is better and not giving any reasons, you've just done that. How is Piasini better? I know you're not going to use HP as the reason it's better because as you've stated before it's not about HP. Torque curve maybe?

    6: People that believe they MUST have a little box that can flash their cars are in the severe minority. This is a FACT. There is little reason to do this other than the 'feelgood' one. And that is what marketing plays on. This is direct experience from many Tuners worldwide. Most people go and get it done. Few actually buy units.
    Where did you get this fact from? 60% of people know that 90% of facts are made up on the spot...
    The fact of the matter is the little box allows for options through different OTS tunes and when the tuning software is released custom tunes.. It's not a once tune fits all thing.

    7: One consideration with handheld units is reliability. They are actually very cheap. If you mess up the write to your ECU, sorry, but you are kinda screwed. Especially if you are in SA, and you bought the unit from QLD. With the professional tools we use, they have recovery modes should the worst happen.
    This is true with any mod, you pay to play. Install a cheap aftermarket mount and you risk potentiall doing dmg to your engine if the mount fails.

  13. #13

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    Your comments are valid.

    I believe that people should question, I have no problem with that at all. Heck, as a technical trainer, I answer questions all day long. It's part of my job!

    What is important, beyond anything else, is you ask the right questions to the right people.

    I have never said that interceptors do not work. What I have said is how they work.

    The data I have presented is true and correct.

    The info on my FAQ page now appears on three Tuner's websites across the world. Reason? It is factual and honest. I try very hard to remain neutral and honest. People that have met and dealt with me would probably agree. I have no reason to lie. I'd make a crappy salesman from that perspective. Must be the techie in me..!!!

    I talk to Tuners around the world almost everyday, so it's pretty fair to say I have an idea what is going on. I have been helping out people on forums tune their cars for almost three years now. I am lucky to say, people are genuinely happy.

    In the long run, there is little I can do to satisfy people's lust for charts and stuff. All I have ever seen that do is start arguments that led nowhere. Solves nothing. If you think I am avoiding, lying, whatever.... You don't know what I stand for. I have already posted charts and data. Even a YouTube clip from a dyno in Switzerland. Already you can see, the response......

    I will promise you, that I will do what I can to be honest and present info as I get it. But what I will not do is to be badgered by a few that believe they know better or are "doing a service" for others.

    I am really thankful that very few of you have seen this all from my angle...... It has not been fun, and probably the most stressful undertaking I have done in years. Whether or not it works out, I just can't say. What I do know, is that I caused a hell of a stir, and made a difference to some.

    Occasionally, I do get somewhat "upset." And I ask that you take that with a grain of salt as they say. Remember, I have invested a lot of time etc into trying to bring to you all something that was not available in Oz. I did this for you all in the long run. Not to make a million dollars, although that would be nice.

    HOT is something I am very passionate about. My honesty and integrity are most important to me. I do give a toss about what I do, and what happens.
    :thanks:

  14. #14

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    Well...as a long friend of wayne..on a few forums and a few visits to QLD.

    I can say..that I havent met a more honest person in my life.

    Im sure when the dyno day gets up and running...all the QLD members can run there stock MPS, tuned MPS and modded MPS.

    Happy Motoring
    duglet

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    Quote Originally Posted by duglet View Post
    Im sure when the dyno day gets up and running...all the QLD members can run there stock MPS, tuned MPS and modded MPS.
    I better get on to that...have some pressure now!!

  16. #16

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    Sassimac

    You did this for us? Not to make a million dollars? Your so kind... How about we all get a group buy and purchase your equipment and then you can charge people your time for a re-flash!

    Cmon...lets be honest... You did it to make money.. At least admit that!

    After testing alot of different ECU's, you have to accept one thing. Different Mod's have different ECU requirements.

    I can guarentee that the PISANI won't do what I need it to do, and hence it's not suited to my application. However for people with smaller modz the Standback might be overkill, and the PISANI is better suited.

    As for the Cobb vs the PISANI, who knows who to believe... one side says one thing, the other says something else..... But im sure as hell going to say this... IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT A FINAL POWER FIGURE.... Of course it helps people make a decision, but i would rather driver a smoother power band, than a rough slingshot and make 5kW more!

    Apparently the CPE Flash is the best one going around on the market, however the coin to start it up, i would imagine would be huge!
    CorkSport FMIC with Cold Air Induction, , Cork Sport Cat Back, CPE Standback with PNP, TurboSmart BOV, Custom Highflow Cat with CorkSports Downpipe,Pauter Rods, CP Pistons,ARP Head Studs, BIGGER TURBO COMING, Pre-ordered a Stage 3 CPE Engine.

  17. #17

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    I stand by what I say. Whether you agree or not.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by lazydog View Post
    Sassimac

    You did this for us? Not to make a million dollars? Your so kind... How about we all get a group buy and purchase your equipment and then you can charge people your time for a re-flash!

    Cmon...lets be honest... You did it to make money.. At least admit that!

    After testing alot of different ECU's, you have to accept one thing. Different Mod's have different ECU requirements.

    I can guarentee that the PISANI won't do what I need it to do, and hence it's not suited to my application. However for people with smaller modz the Standback might be overkill, and the PISANI is better suited.

    As for the Cobb vs the PISANI, who knows who to believe... one side says one thing, the other says something else..... But im sure as hell going to say this... IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT A FINAL POWER FIGURE.... Of course it helps people make a decision, but i would rather driver a smoother power band, than a rough slingshot and make 5kW more!

    That is what the Piasini Tune is aimed at!! Nothing more, nothing less.

    Apparently the CPE Flash is the best one going around on the market, however the coin to start it up, i would imagine would be huge!
    CPE flash is ONLY throttle plate control, thats it, it is to run inconjunction with their Standback, not as a stand alone file.


    Anyway BOT!
    Last edited by 2000MNLESS; 13-11-2008 at 10:58 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Street Road Laino View Post
    I'm never drinking again

  19. Default

    I think the answer to the original post is - "At the end of the day, each way has its pros and cons".

    I for one went Xede (and I dont regret it), as back in May this year the Piasini wasnt readily available. I'm also now very interested to see what combining the Xede + Piasini would do (with the full throttle plate control and other driveability tweaks that the Xede doesnt do -> possibly leading to a big bang, but hey ) I also agree that the Xede so called "hacking" and cabling during the installation isnt for everyone (altho the APC boys made it almost invisible), and of course there are limits to what the intercepter ECUs can do.

    Still the Piasini isnt that easy to get hold of. Those wanting the Piasini up here in QLD... Well we have to wait a little longer until Corey gets the business officially up n running (he could be already? but theres no word on the street as yet), and then even that limits the majority of QLD owned MPS3's to SE QLD - while theres a dime a dozen high performance places that can do the Xede across major centres in QLD. There are others in this thread who obviously dont know the hoops (both time and personal cost) one has to go thru in order to bring a proprietry product to market - its a very slow process and I'm sure Piasini HQ are very stringent. However, as a result of this, the Piasini retailer distribution/installation is currently a very limiting factor, and hopefully there is a "short term-to-market" strategy to get this great piece of spice to the majority, and not limit it to the privileged minority. It also doesnt help that if you've travelled several hundred kms to get the V3 flash, and Mazda updates the ECU on your next service, needless to say, you'll have to plan another long trip, but on the other hand with the Xede, most Mazda Dealers will bump your warranty to heaven once seeing that little black gizmo in your glovebox - enough said.

    I also think once we see a few dyno's (yes I'm chart focused) coming thru the system, this might also give the old chiptorque Xede retailers/installers a good kick to reduce their prices (competition is needed in this arena) and thats really another bonus in the whole scheme of things.

    In saying all of the above and in the near future I envisage that a fairly good comparison table can be made up at some stage, giving a good breakdown of costs, and unexpected costs (eg, like having to buy a high spec fuel pump, etc, on top of the base price) and general expected performance (not just at the top end). Theres only so much internet reading one can do on all of the above, and unbiased information from the people who spend the big bucks, will be valuable to those entering the modding market (MSY79 is a good example), and of course its up to us (we the people who have some ideas and experience) to guide the newbies to the best value decision and within their budget
    Last edited by Wardski; 13-11-2008 at 12:27 PM.

  20. #20
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    It's definitely a personal perference at the end of the day. Why? because it all comes down to what you wish to gain from the car and how deep your pockets are. Ward, I wish I could say it was all finalised, but doing 70hr weeks at work doesn't leave me with much chance to run in and sort everthing out

    I do however agree with the drama of travelling distances, organising reflashes etc. Hatchd from OMC is one whom has had to travel some distance to get the tune done by Wayne (Sassimac).

    This was one thing I brought up with him several times back before I had V1 on the car. A palm flasher would be great, and providing the tune is still able to be locked and used on one car only, then I don't see why Piasini should not be happy to play. The problem is gaining access through the OBD port. We all know Cobb have achieved this, but they aren't exactly going to share this with the world.

    As for dyno sheets, well again, its at the bottom of my 'to do' list, might go pop into Gavin Woods on the weekend if I get a chance and try and tee something up.. JUST FOR YOU WARD! haha
    Quote Originally Posted by Street Road Laino View Post
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