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Thread: TMIC and bending rods

  1. #21

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    I've been making and selling FMIC kits for $1200, not $1200 over the price of the TMIC. I use a PWR core. PM You Lose or MPSI, they have one.

  2. #22
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by nissanman View Post

    I think my S14 picked up maybe 2-3 kw at the wheels by putting on the FMIC. BUT.... It did not lose significant amounts of power each run it had due to heating up... Thats where it will help in real world on the road
    S14 wmic are horrific, they are prone to cracking where the sold pipes join, thats why we always swapped to a FMIC, you could happily run around 260-270bhp on the standard if it was in good nick though.

    If the standard TMIC on the MPS suffers from heat soak is there not some way of shielding better with some sort of insulator??

  3. Default

    I've run my ETS for what seems like 2 years now. Boost spools earlier and I do get over 20psi spikes but that's also because of my other mods. No problems so far and my car is running the stock ecu.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattMPS3 View Post
    Cooler charge temps, less chance of knock, more dense air entering cylinders, ECU will naturally add more timing to take advantage of this.
    I'm not sure this is correct. Air temperature differences of 5 or 10 degress are not going to be make a difference when you've got the heat of the constant explosions going on in the cylinders. Then there's the fact that the denser air results in more fuel which results in a bigger bang which results in higher temperatures.

    Quote Originally Posted by MattMPS3 View Post
    Lower pressure drop across the core, the turbo doesnt have to push as hard to meet its boost targets, yes Jmac the stock IC has a 4psi drop, most aftermarket units will only have a 2 psi drop.
    On the stock core + Xede tuned to 18.5psi, the turbo is boosting to 22.5 psi, which is pretty much at the end of its efficiency range, i.e blowing a lot of hot air.
    There's an interesting article I read talking about the benefits of pressure drop vs efficiency (inverse relationship). Yes the stock IC has a larger pressure drop, but that usually means it is more efficiently at cooling the air. For it's weight and size, the stocker is actually a pretty good unit.

    Quote Originally Posted by MattMPS3 View Post
    As an example, I found after fitting the FMIC that the car would not struggle to achieve its 15.7 target boost, in fact the opposite occurred it would boost up to about 16.5 psi and hover between 16-16.5.
    Others have noticed this too, but for some reason I've never been able to reproduce this. I'm running a 3.25 ETS, CPE DP and COBB intake/inlet, but my readings have always been ~15.7 (Dashdaq and Dashhawk). Another reason I'm not so sure about this, is because the readings come direct from the ECU, and the ECU is targeting 15.7 (in 3rd gear). Shouldn't the ECU start opening the waste gate if you're above the target (assuming you're not running a SB or flash)?

    Quote Originally Posted by MattMPS3 View Post
    -Heatsoak, the ETS will soak as badly as any other TMIC (the bane of the MPS), it will dissipate the heat much quicker though.
    This is another comment I'm not so sure about. Unless the materials are drastically different, wouldn't the determining factor be speed of vehicle, and hence rate of airflow? I don't know too much about thermodynamics or metallurgy so please correct me if I'm wrong.
    Nuliaj: Hatches are only really half a car anyway.
    shinslinger66: And you forgot to add that they are also a girls car!

  5. Default

    anyway, i dont believe the ets will dissipate heat better than the stock unit, unfortunately i am not sure how accurate all this is

    if both were heated up to the same temperature, you would think the ets would require more cooling than the stock unit to drop to ambient temperatures

    because the ets has a larger volume, it requires more heat (or that it can absorb more heat) to bring it to the same temperature as the stock unit under the same operating conditions

    and because the increase in temperatures are lower than the stock unit, when you apply the same amount of heat to both, it would cool down quicker with the same amount of airflow

    if you were to leave the car sitting at 99-103 degrees with no airflow for 10 minutes, i would think the stock unit would cool down faster if you applied the same amount of cooling air to both

    the design of the ets probably helps with heat dissipation too

    anyway, just my thoughts

  6. #26

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    I found in testing the Hyperflow TMIC that the larger core size effectively hindered the flow of air by blocking what was already a very small path, especially below the core where there was very little space for the air to exit. It doesn't matter how big the duct is, if the cooling air can't get out at the end of the path it wont flow.

    Coupled with the larger size which meant more thermal inertia, the core would heat up and take forever to cool down again. In fact the BAT was almost always higher than with the stock TMIC. However the reduced pressure drop made a big difference to performance.

    So Hyperflow are now developing a core with reduced thickness to strike a balance between pressure drop and cooling airflow. I think they are on the right track - bigger isn't always better.

    Gone to Volvo


  7. #27

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    After fitting the CS-FMIC I'd never go back to TMIC in such a restricted-space environment. At the end of a fast freeway run (+80kmh), if you stop quickly and get out to inspect and feel around, my two primary intake lines (filter-to-turbo and intercooler-to-Throttle Body) and the intercooler itself are stone cold. There is no doubt the stock TMIC is a manufacturer's (one might argue - reasonable) compromise of cost and simplicity, but it soaks up heat like there is no tomorrow and has no where to dissipate it to, especially given the close proximity to the near red hot exhausts, turbo and heat shields - and no bonnet louvres - something I have considered, albeit briefly. Getting a decent dump pipe instead of the stock restrictive setup has reduce temps in that area too.
    CP_e Standback & PNP; CP_e 3" SS Downpipe; Corksport FMIC with Top-mount K&N filter & OEM Ram CAI; Turbosmart BOV; Dashhawk; Prosport Boost Guage; JBR solid shift bushes; DBA 4000 Wiper-Slot front rotors; Hawk Ferro-Carbon HPS Street front brake pads (@ 69,000km); Sumitomo HTRZIII's in 225/45 x 18

  8. #28

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    I'd also add that they went the TMIC route to also avoid the boy racer look (that the FMIC screams) for the MPS6. The TMICs themselves are running just as cool when there's air moving through them. I've been suprised by how cold (not cool) they've actually been after a decent run.
    Last edited by Nuliaj; 04-12-2009 at 02:04 PM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuliaj View Post
    I'm not sure this is correct. Air temperature differences of 5 or 10 degress are not going to be make a difference when you've got the heat of the constant explosions going on in the cylinders. Then there's the fact that the denser air results in more fuel which results in a bigger bang which results in higher temperatures.
    The car adjusts its timing based on BAT, amongst many other things, any drop in BATs is going to help here, maybe not 5º worth but 20º is a pretty big jump, it bases this on the air temp in the manifold, not the big explosions taking place in the cylinder.
    The car will not automatically add fuel to compensate for denser air (unless boost pressures are also indirectly raised), if anything cars will naturally run slightly leaner in denser air, ever wondered why your car goes better in winter. Also consider that a "feature" of DI engines is to add fuel at certain times to aid in cooling the cylinder via evaporation, more so in hotter conditions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuliaj View Post
    There's an interesting article I read talking about the benefits of pressure drop vs efficiency (inverse relationship). Yes the stock IC has a larger pressure drop, but that usually means it is more efficiently at cooling the air. For it's weight and size, the stocker is actually a pretty good unit.
    For a stock IC its pretty big, and I was pleasantly surprised how low my BATs remained giving the car a belting with clean cool air in front of me, but anyone looking to go over stock boost is going to have problems with the efficiency ceiling, as we approach the ceiling, BATs increase substantially, decreasing air density and generally making life miserable.
    Yes pressure drop & efficiency do work inversely of each other, the most efficient method would be a straight piece of pipe from the turbo to the inlet, theres no point having an efficient, high pressure drop core if you are only going to be blowing hotter air through it from increasing boost, it defeats its own purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuliaj View Post
    Others have noticed this too, but for some reason I've never been able to reproduce this. I'm running a 3.25 ETS, CPE DP and COBB intake/inlet, but my readings have always been ~15.7 (Dashdaq and Dashhawk). Another reason I'm not so sure about this, is because the readings come direct from the ECU, and the ECU is targeting 15.7 (in 3rd gear). Shouldn't the ECU start opening the waste gate if you're above the target (assuming you're not running a SB or flash)?
    My readings have been done with a digital boost gauge, accurate down to 0.1 psi, measuring from the inlet manifold....beats me, maybe it a front mount thing, I haven't really studied the operation of the waste gate on these cars to bother checking what they are doing at peak boost, maybe they are fully open at that stage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuliaj View Post
    This is another comment I'm not so sure about. Unless the materials are drastically different, wouldn't the determining factor be speed of vehicle, and hence rate of airflow? I don't know too much about thermodynamics or metallurgy so please correct me if I'm wrong.
    OK, probably not one of my better worded sentences, I was thinking more about the air flowing through the core, cooling down quicker due to the greater surface area it encounters, the physical core itself being larger would probably take longer to cool.
    Nearly all men can stand adversity. But if you want to test a man's character - give him power.
    Abraham Lincoln

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattMPS3 View Post
    My readings have been done with a digital boost gauge, accurate down to 0.1 psi, measuring from the inlet manifold....beats me, maybe it a front mount thing, I haven't really studied the operation of the waste gate on these cars to bother checking what they are doing at peak boost, maybe they are fully open at that stage.
    I think this might be it. For example t4orce has a mechanical defi gauge plugged in post IC and the thing registers 17-19 psi with a very similar setup to mine. I'm now wondering if the dashhawks and such are only reading targetted boost?
    Nuliaj: Hatches are only really half a car anyway.
    shinslinger66: And you forgot to add that they are also a girls car!

  11. #31

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    You've got to look pretty hard at the front of mine to realize that it IS an FMIC there and not just the aircon radiator. Some of the smaller brands are actually more obvious.

    However, while it is a great unit, Corksport don't help by spray painting their name all over the front of it (and half of their other components) which was the only thing that pisses me off about the setup. I tried to clean it off but it was stuck on pretty fast so I gave up, rather than make a mess. I considered respraying it black but the fact that it is so inconspicuous meant that I decided to leave well enough alone.

    BTW, I may be wrong, but believe the Dash-hawk will only read targeted boost if it is only reading from the under-dash readout port off the ECU and connected functions. A boost guage properly set up should read actual boost. I am about to start comparing the readings on mine with the Standback and then the Dash-hawk.
    Last edited by Doug_MPS6; 04-12-2009 at 04:57 PM.
    CP_e Standback & PNP; CP_e 3" SS Downpipe; Corksport FMIC with Top-mount K&N filter & OEM Ram CAI; Turbosmart BOV; Dashhawk; Prosport Boost Guage; JBR solid shift bushes; DBA 4000 Wiper-Slot front rotors; Hawk Ferro-Carbon HPS Street front brake pads (@ 69,000km); Sumitomo HTRZIII's in 225/45 x 18

  12. #32

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    Which is why if I ever bought one, I'd have gone cobb as they gave you a template to spray their name on if you wanted Unfortunately they don't sell it anymore

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug_MPS6 View Post

    BTW, I may be wrong, but believe the Dash-hawk will only read targeted boost if it is only reading from the under-dash readout port off the ECU and connected functions. A boost guage properly set up should read actual boost. I am about to start comparing the readings on mine with the Standback and then the Dash-hawk.
    Dashhawk would read SAE.MAP (manifold absolute pressure) and SAE.BARO (barometric pressure) and use them to calculate the readout in +/- PSI
    This is not a target value, it's a sensor reading.

    you need mazda level diag access to see ECU targets for values (I can!) and I don't think there's one for map off the top of my head. Could be wrong, there's a lot of mazda proprietary stuff that can be read if you have the access.

    having said that there's no SAE.BAT from the MPS and dashhawk can read boost temp, so dashhawk must have some mazda proprietary access. How much I don't know as I don't have one.

  14. #34

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    Thx Nexus. Useful points. Chs.

  15. #35

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    The benefits of the Dashdaq is access to a whole heap of stuff the Dashhawk can't. I haven't been able to even use most of them...

    New Page 1

    Nexus: I understand what you're saying about sensor readings to calculate boost since that's how I've had to configure my Dashdaq to show boost. I guess my question is why the sensor readings are different to a gauge plumb directly into the system?
    Last edited by Nuliaj; 04-12-2009 at 05:18 PM.

  16. #36

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    One of the best feelings....
    Driving home at night in my S14 home from my then girlfriends (now wife) and getting home to run out there car and put your hand on the FMIC core... COLD! Like fridge cold!
    ...then move on to your intake side... The pipes COLD! Near freezer cold! Fantastic!

    Some nights the pipe on the turbo side going into the FMIC was actaully COLD!
    Generally it was neutral though.

    Sorry, Just reminiscing

    Current: 2002 Nissan S15 200SX SPEC R
    Previously: 2006 Mazda 6 MPS ,MY00 WRX CLUB SPEC EVO IV Hatch ,97' Nissan S14A 200sx, Nissan R34 GT-T, Nissan S12 Silvia

  17. #37

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    Amazing to know someone else gets their jollies like I do ! ;o)

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuliaj View Post
    I think this might be it. For example t4orce has a mechanical defi gauge plugged in post IC and the thing registers 17-19 psi with a very similar setup to mine. I'm now wondering if the dashhawks and such are only reading targetted boost?
    Knew I had one here somewhere, here is a pic of mine after a burst in 5th, this is on the stock ECU.....guess who is about to start slowing down very quickly.
    This was a typical peak boost level for me, sort of fluctuated around the low to mid 16's.

    http://www.ozmpsclub.com/forum/attac...boostgauge.jpg


    Quote Originally Posted by Doug_MPS6 View Post
    However, while it is a great unit, Corksport don't help by spray painting their name all over the front of it (and half of their other components) which was the only thing that pisses me off about the setup. I tried to clean it off but it was stuck on pretty fast so I gave up, rather than make a mess. I considered respraying it black but the fact that it is so inconspicuous meant that I decided to leave well enough alone.

    Did you try some paint stripper Doug, that took care of the cp-e logo on mine quick smart, I also found that painting the endtanks black made it a little more discreet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuliaj View Post
    The benefits of the Dashdaq is access to a whole heap of stuff the Dashhawk can't. I haven't been able to even use most of them...

    New Page 1

    Nexus: I understand what you're saying about sensor readings to calculate boost since that's how I've had to configure my Dashdaq to show boost. I guess my question is why the sensor readings are different to a gauge plumb directly into the system?
    Have you thought of using one of your available aux inputs on your Dashdaq for a compatible boost sender and comparing the two results?
    Nearly all men can stand adversity. But if you want to test a man's character - give him power.
    Abraham Lincoln

  19. #39
    Join Date
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    The reasons for factory using a TMIC is very simple, throttle responce and cheaper to repair.
    Imagine having to add $1000 to every minor frontal accident.
    Would give the car a bad reputation, expensive insurance premiums and less customers


    I like Mals idea on the size of the TMIC restricting airflow, it makes total sence.

    Another theory i've had is in the stock TMIC cover, it overhangs past the cooler quite a bit, right above the exhaust and turbo, it could possibly trap the hot air (noticed because both dad and i have suffered from melted badges) the part that makes the idea slightly realistic is that it has been completely changed on the new MPS, there is no overhang.


    Interesting thing - On the works rally Pulsar GTi-R's they found that running with the detachable driving lights on the bonnet during the day cooled the air flowing into the bonnet scoop, claimed was good for another 25hp (or more realistically, didn't lose 25hp through heat)

  20. #40

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    I highly doubt insurance cost is even a factor to manufacturers. Otherwise they'd remove all the expensive parts from the car to make it even cheaper

    I'm actually considering a FMIC depending on the price these days. I would definately paint mine black to continue my sleeper look.

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