One for the sceptics

[MaN|aC]

a tune is a given....not even worth a mention

the standard fuel pump wont cope in the Mps?

[MattMPS3]

All blown MZRs (that I know of) have blown down low around 3k give or take. The quick transition to boost with the high torque coupled with the fueling issues (cdfp) are seen as the most obvious causes. I am yet to see a rod bend at high rpm.

Issue number two is going to be the ecu and fueling for any BT setup on the MZR.

I am still pointing my finger (quite firmly) at the modified throttle plate flashes being the root cause of engine failures, its doing something in there that the ECU just isnt coping with, its becoming a worrying trend, the majority of failures have had some form of TP flash done, that and I think the US market is running too thin an oil, a practice that has been somewhat ingrained into their society.
Has anyone stopped to consider that the throttle plate does what it does for a reason, it might not be doing this to protect the paltry little turbo that everyone thinks, maybe it has something to do with fuelling and DI.
The CDFP doesnt seem to be getting blamed too much any more for bolt on power woes, maybe there was a bad batch, but there was a trend where eveyone had to get one, again we must remember that DI is only a relatively new technology to manufacturers, with their floors of technicians & engineers implementing these systems, the average enthusiast & tuning community are a long way from catching up to the experts.

[magoo]

I am still pointing my finger (quite firmly) at the modified throttle plate flashes being the root cause of engine failures, its doing something in there that the ECU just isnt coping with, its becoming a worrying trend, the majority of failures have had some form of TP flash done, that and I think the US market is running too thin an oil, a practice that has been somewhat ingrained into their society.
Has anyone stopped to consider that the throttle plate does what it does for a reason, it might not be doing this to protect the paltry little turbo that everyone thinks, maybe it has something to do with fuelling and DI.
The CDFP doesnt seem to be getting blamed too much any more for bolt on power woes, maybe there was a bad batch, but there was a trend where eveyone had to get one, again we must remember that DI is only a relatively new technology to manufacturers, with their floors of technicians & engineers implementing these systems, the average enthusiast & tuning community are a long way from catching up to the experts.

And the stock failures ?

[2XS]

Also, which gaskets will you be using to decrease compression?

Why would I need to reduce compression? I won't be running an more boost than most modded MPS owners. I think anything over 18psi is too much for a stock motor.

All blown MZRs (that I know of) have blown down low around 3k give or take. The quick transition to boost with the high torque coupled with the fueling issues (cdfp) are seen as the most obvious causes. I am yet to see a rod bend at high rpm.

Issue number two is going to be the ecu and fueling for any BT setup on the MZR.

I have the CT flash and am currently fitting the XEDE this weekend. Do you think I need to go further?

And the stock failures ?

Yes! Too true.

[magoo]

Why would I need to reduce compression? I won't be running an more boost than most modded MPS owners. I think anything over 18psi is too much for a stock motor.



I have the CT flash and am currently fitting the XEDE this weekend. Do you think I need to go further?



Yes! Too true.

I believe that we are maxed at around 350whp with our current fuel system (cdfp/rails/injectors etc) . 2 alternative fuel systems are near completion in the US. A sponsor on the MS forum "Race Roots" will have something ready in next week or so. I would keep a close eye on this, even though these cures keep being promised and the vendors vanish into thin air.


Interestingly Race roots are using a huge t67 turbo to push the peak power higher in the rev range for safety. The accounts thus far indicate minimal lag considering the turbo size and they have produced the highest whp for a stock bottom end MZR (401whp) at a lofty (for the MZR) 6-6.5k.

Perhaps this is the key with this platform, but only time will tell.

Best of luck though, I hope you blow the yanks into the weeds.
I am watching you keenly and hope that this is a success.

[MattMPS3]

And the stock failures ?

Yes the so called "stock" failures, the only stock failures in the US have been in their economy, what is posted on the forum for the general public to read, is often edited once a warranty claim is considered, I read some great post edits over there.
Sure there could be a very small incidence of stock motors failing, like any manufactured part the chance of failure of one, or even several, of the hundreds of parts that make up an engine can have manufacturing defects, and given the ratio of MS3's in the North American market to our own, it is more likely to occur there than here.

[Dark Authority]

THis thread is sooo interesting.. keep checking this daily

[magoo]

Quote

"I am still pointing my finger (quite firmly) at the modified throttle plate flashes being the root cause of engine failures, its doing something in there that the ECU just isnt coping with, its becoming a worrying trend, the majority of failures have had some form of TP flash done, that and I think the US market is running too thin an oil, a practice that has been somewhat ingrained into their society"


While I do agree that a certain percentage of so called stockers are not necessarily "untouched" I do not find any correlation with the instances of blown motors and throttle control flashes. The advent of throttle control flashes is fairly recent yet the failures have occurred since day one, majority being piggyback tuned vehicles. I also understand that the majority of tuned vehicles are using SB and Xede so it is natural for the weighting of popped MZR's to sit in their corner. In summary there seems to be no increase in failures since the Various TC flash options became available.

In OZ the first engine to go bang was an Xede tuned vehicle (cosmic on ozmazdaclub) and since then we obviously know of 1st gen flashes that have been used on other blown cars.

Sorry to be long winded, its just that the numbers thus far do not point to "throttle plate control" being a standout contributor in our problem.

[2XS]

Detonation causes rods to bend. If I can keep the rattling at bay, I will have half my problems eliminated. Too much compression will bend them too, so, I must limit the boost to a "safe" level until more is learnt about why the MZR is blowing. I'm not going to jinx myself, but, If tuned, built and driven properly, I doubt there will be an issue.

[Nexus]

In OZ the first engine to go bang was an Xede tuned vehicle (cosmic on ozmazdaclub)

Cosmic had that thing so highly stressed pop was just about inevitable. an estimated 275Kw+ at the flywheel, 233 at the wheels. water/meth to stave off detonation....

DUDE! Build the engine from the ground up if you're looking to make that kind of output reliably. Don't expect an engine built to price/profit compromises that puts out 200 to go near 300 without re-engineering.

Rule of thumb is about 10% safe headroom in most manufacturing arenas.

I can't help but view cosmics monster output as a blown engine waiting to happen.

I think it is borderline insane to suggest that there is something wrong with the design of a 200Kw engine that doesn't hack putting out approaching 300Kw without problems.

Seriously....

MZR are not the only engines that go pop when you over-stress them.

How many full builds have gone pop? Last time this was being discussed, nobody had heard of a properly built engine blowing.

[magoo]

"DUDE! Build the engine from the ground up if you're looking to make that kind of output reliably. Don't expect an engine built to price/profit compromises that puts out 200 to go near 300 without re-engineering."

This is what Im pushing at.

The cost to build the engine with rods/pistons when in one piece vs with a hole in your block is obviously much cheaper. Build now and have the piece of mind.

My concerned are based on the car running stock bottom end.

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My notes on the tuning side are related to both reliability and making power. The built guys running big turbo are not making power, this is most probably a fueling isue.

[KRNAGE]

what are you doing with the stock turbo? i might be interested in it

[2XS]

what are you doing with the stock turbo? i might be interested in it

I'm going to fit it to my wifes '07 Camry Sportivo.

[CharlieBrown]

I'm going to fit it to my wifes '07 Camry Sportivo.

That's going to be one quick Camry!

[duglet]

I'm going to fit it to my wifes '07 Camry Sportivo.

A real Sportivo

Happy Motoring
duglet

[240MPS]

Wow Troy a Maztoyota with some flair can't wait.....

[2XS]

Just wait for the MPS to be finished first.

[240MPS]

Mines driving me nuts now I want to do more now because of the new found grip, but what I pour into this slows me down with the HSV....

[Nirvandan]

I'm going to fit it to my wifes '07 Camry Sportivo.

I bet she doesnt know about this yet

[240MPS]