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Thread: How to Handle Handling?

  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by projectrracing View Post
    you might wanna type that post again.
    Why does he want to write this again? It makes sense to me,.. Higher rear tyre pressure means less grip in the back and lower front tyre pressure meaning more grip in the front. These two will combine towards the oversteer effect. I'm not sure what you're getting at...
    --> 2008 Metro Grey Sports Pack Gen1 <--

    CS SRI ll CS TIP ll CS AB ll 2XS SSP ll 2XS FMIC ll SURE Anchors ll Enkei RPF1's 17x9 +45 ll Lamin-X Fog Tint ll DBA T3 4000 series ll Remsa pads ll Braided lines
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  2. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by AzzA SP20 View Post
    Too right buddy, Hence why i said handling effect both give the driver the same "feel" as such... but one is faster
    But its a very good thing to think about when playing with swaybars, spring rates and dampening.

    Most people thing "i want more oversteer" so increase spring rate and dampening force in the rear.... but leaving the front as is.

    What really should be happening is you adjust the front end first to optimise front grip, then make your rear adjustments based of your new found front grip.
    whilst I agree with this sentiment, it's not entirely always possible when you are not tuning every possible part on the car. For example, a completely stock car and someone wants to get some better handling, getting a RSB would be the best starting point. now you wouldn't say to that person, change parts on front axle first.

  3. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by AzzA SP20 View Post
    Too right buddy, Hence why i said handling effect both give the driver the same "feel" as such... but one is faster
    But its a very good thing to think about when playing with swaybars, spring rates and dampening.

    Most people thing "i want more oversteer" so increase spring rate and dampening force in the rear.... but leaving the front as is.

    What really should be happening is you adjust the front end first to optimise front grip, then make your rear adjustments based of your new found front grip.

    When you say "Increase dampening force in the rear", this is reducing the rebound correct? How does this contribute towards oversteer?

    So your ways of adjusting the front to optimise grip are increased caster for more dynamic camber, lower brace and strut brace? (And of course good tyres but I think this is kind of assumed here)

    Speaking of which, would that present an argument for having better tyres on the front than the rear to increase front end grip relative to the rear or is that as stupid as it sounds?
    --> 2008 Metro Grey Sports Pack Gen1 <--

    CS SRI ll CS TIP ll CS AB ll 2XS SSP ll 2XS FMIC ll SURE Anchors ll Enkei RPF1's 17x9 +45 ll Lamin-X Fog Tint ll DBA T3 4000 series ll Remsa pads ll Braided lines
    CP-E S2 RMM ll Hankook RS3 235/40/17 ll Forge V1 BPV ll Whiteline RSB ll AutoTech HPFP
    ll Spin-on Conversion ll Rear Diffuser
    DGR Coilovers ll LED Replacement lights ll "08-MPS" plates ll Cobb AP V3 (E85) ll CP-e TBE ll OCC






  4. Default

    correct method of selecting the correct tyre pressure is to actually measure TEMPERATURE.

    Outside Left, Center and Outside Right (this is Per tyre)

    e.g.
    if center is lower temp than outside edges... then increase pressure (general rule, 5deg = 1-2psi increase)

  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by lup15 View Post
    whilst I agree with this sentiment, it's not entirely always possible when you are not tuning every possible part on the car. For example, a completely stock car and someone wants to get some better handling, getting a RSB would be the best starting point. now you wouldn't say to that person, change parts on front axle first.
    I think we're talking way past the point of rsb as the only handling suspension upgrade.

    You are right in that regard though. If that's all you want, then rsb prob is the best way to go
    --> 2008 Metro Grey Sports Pack Gen1 <--

    CS SRI ll CS TIP ll CS AB ll 2XS SSP ll 2XS FMIC ll SURE Anchors ll Enkei RPF1's 17x9 +45 ll Lamin-X Fog Tint ll DBA T3 4000 series ll Remsa pads ll Braided lines
    CP-E S2 RMM ll Hankook RS3 235/40/17 ll Forge V1 BPV ll Whiteline RSB ll AutoTech HPFP
    ll Spin-on Conversion ll Rear Diffuser
    DGR Coilovers ll LED Replacement lights ll "08-MPS" plates ll Cobb AP V3 (E85) ll CP-e TBE ll OCC






  6. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by AzzA SP20 View Post
    correct method of selecting the correct tyre pressure is to actually measure TEMPERATURE.

    Outside Left, Center and Outside Right (this is Per tyre)

    e.g.
    if center is lower temp than outside edges... then increase pressure (general rule, 5deg = 1-2psi increase)
    Wouldn't adjusting camber change this as well though? Ie, if centre is lower in temp, increase camber?
    Or do you mean you set the camber you want, and then play around with the tyre pressures?
    --> 2008 Metro Grey Sports Pack Gen1 <--

    CS SRI ll CS TIP ll CS AB ll 2XS SSP ll 2XS FMIC ll SURE Anchors ll Enkei RPF1's 17x9 +45 ll Lamin-X Fog Tint ll DBA T3 4000 series ll Remsa pads ll Braided lines
    CP-E S2 RMM ll Hankook RS3 235/40/17 ll Forge V1 BPV ll Whiteline RSB ll AutoTech HPFP
    ll Spin-on Conversion ll Rear Diffuser
    DGR Coilovers ll LED Replacement lights ll "08-MPS" plates ll Cobb AP V3 (E85) ll CP-e TBE ll OCC






  7. #87
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
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    Sunshine Coast, QLD
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    Quote Originally Posted by lup15 View Post
    type what again? increasing the the rear tyre pressure on the rear, opposite to that is decreasing the front tyre pressure
    which is incorrect unless you are tracking it. which you have made clear you dont.

    you actually increase tyre pressure to a point to increase grip. and decrease pressure to reduce grip. so i think you have the axles mixed up if you are trying to induce oversteer.

    the only reason you would run lower pressure on the front is if you are running tyres that are heat sensitive (like r specs) as the tyres will be more sensitive to increases in heat and tyre pressures (6-10 psi) on the fronts of a fwd car than on the rears of a fwd car (only 2-3 psi).

    on a street only player like yourself, you just run the normal higher front, lower rear as the temps wont change much more then 2 psi.

  8. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by AzzA SP20 View Post
    Too right buddy, Hence why i said handling effect both give the driver the same "feel" as such... but one is faster
    But its a very good thing to think about when playing with swaybars, spring rates and dampening.

    Most people thing "i want more oversteer" so increase spring rate and dampening force in the rear.... but leaving the front as is.

    What really should be happening is you adjust the front end first to optimise front grip, then make your rear adjustments based of your new found front grip.
    Quote Originally Posted by AzzA SP20 View Post
    correct method of selecting the correct tyre pressure is to actually measure TEMPERATURE.

    Outside Left, Center and Outside Right (this is Per tyre)

    e.g.
    if center is lower temp than outside edges... then increase pressure (general rule, 5deg = 1-2psi increase)
    yes, the primary function of the tyre is to provide grip. there are so many other factors that need to be taken into consideration which is why it is difficult to have a blanket. the tyre pressure will also depend on the alignment settings of the car, how many corners, how many left and right hand corners, car weight distribution etc. Most of this stuff once again is more track orientated as you can have a constant to some of the variables.

    There is obviously street and track. @GibbA you will need to stipulate where the car will be driven as that will determine how the handling is going to be setup.

  9. #89
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    Dec 2010
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    Sunshine Coast, QLD
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    458

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    Quote Originally Posted by GibbA View Post
    Why does he want to write this again? It makes sense to me,.. Higher rear tyre pressure means less grip in the back and lower front tyre pressure meaning more grip in the front. These two will combine towards the oversteer effect. I'm not sure what you're getting at...
    grip, or lack of grip is all about making the tyres move on the wheel. correct tyre pressures allow little movement of the tyre and hence good grip. lower the pressures and allow the tyre to move, you increase the tyre movement and hence reduce grip.

    take that had add it to whatever axle desired to make it oversteer or understeer.

  10. #90

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    Spirited Street driving with track days whenever I can.
    I know street is how my car will need to be set up, but I kind of want it a bit track orientated, as I don't see how that would hinder me on the street anyway (apart from rear spring/damping rates)
    I definitely will change up the damping rates for when I go on the track, but as far as alignment specs go, I'm not sure if they'll be adjusted yet. I've got a lot more to learn yet.

  11. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by projectrracing View Post
    grip, or lack of grip is all about making the tyres move on the wheel. correct tyre pressures allow little movement of the tyre and hence good grip. lower the pressures and allow the tyre to move, you increase the tyre movement and hence reduce grip.

    take that had add it to whatever axle desired to make it oversteer or understeer.
    Ok this makes sense too.
    Me having 245/40 tyres, I have quite a large side wall of the tyre.
    This is pointing towards the need of higher pressure to reduce this flex? Lup mentioned previously about going to a 235 tyres next time to help reduce this as well. Correct?

    From taking that information, is the only advantage of having a wide tyre, having more "off the line" grip because of the larger contact patch? I see it that way, especially with how powerful these cars are, the first few gears will spin the tyres way too much if there isn't enough tyre on the ground to put the power down.
    Would keeping the same width tyres for acceleration, but having higher tyre pressures to reduce side wall flex be a good combination?
    --> 2008 Metro Grey Sports Pack Gen1 <--

    CS SRI ll CS TIP ll CS AB ll 2XS SSP ll 2XS FMIC ll SURE Anchors ll Enkei RPF1's 17x9 +45 ll Lamin-X Fog Tint ll DBA T3 4000 series ll Remsa pads ll Braided lines
    CP-E S2 RMM ll Hankook RS3 235/40/17 ll Forge V1 BPV ll Whiteline RSB ll AutoTech HPFP
    ll Spin-on Conversion ll Rear Diffuser
    DGR Coilovers ll LED Replacement lights ll "08-MPS" plates ll Cobb AP V3 (E85) ll CP-e TBE ll OCC






  12. #92

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    I would strongly suggest that you read up on alignment as well. Alignment makes a huge difference to handling. However it will also depend on how much you want to spend on tyres and how comfortable you want the car to drive on the street.

    Example, Toe out on the front axel will help with turn in. but it will also kill the tyres quicker than any other alignment setting. It also makes the car twitchy when going along straight roads or highways as the steering wants to pull either way

    you can run high negative camber which as discussed can improve handling, but it will wear the inside of the tyre unless you are corning hard often.

    I would try going for a mild setup first then seeing how it behaves in everyday situations whilst checking tyre wear. then make it more aggressive as you see fit

  13. #93
    Join Date
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    Sunshine Coast, QLD
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    Quote Originally Posted by GibbA View Post
    Spirited Street driving with track days whenever I can.
    I know street is how my car will need to be set up, but I kind of want it a bit track orientated, as I don't see how that would hinder me on the street anyway (apart from rear spring/damping rates)
    I definitely will change up the damping rates for when I go on the track, but as far as alignment specs go, I'm not sure if they'll be adjusted yet. I've got a lot more to learn yet.
    just find a happy medium between the 2, it aint hard.

  14. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by lup15 View Post
    I would strongly suggest that you read up on alignment as well. Alignment makes a huge difference to handling. However it will also depend on how much you want to spend on tyres and how comfortable you want the car to drive on the street.

    Example, Toe out on the front axel will help with turn in. but it will also kill the tyres quicker than any other alignment setting. It also makes the car twitchy when going along straight roads or highways as the steering wants to pull either way

    you can run high negative camber which as discussed can improve handling, but it will wear the inside of the tyre unless you are corning hard often.

    I would try going for a mild setup first then seeing how it behaves in everyday situations whilst checking tyre wear. then make it more aggressive as you see fit
    So this would be an advocate for getting an alignment for the track seperately, so that you're not eating up your tyres daily.
    I for one will not be cheaping out on tyres, but also want to get the best out of them that I can.
    I nearly bought a set of RX-7 FD rims to chuck under the house and then use on the track. Wondering if I should have bought them now...
    --> 2008 Metro Grey Sports Pack Gen1 <--

    CS SRI ll CS TIP ll CS AB ll 2XS SSP ll 2XS FMIC ll SURE Anchors ll Enkei RPF1's 17x9 +45 ll Lamin-X Fog Tint ll DBA T3 4000 series ll Remsa pads ll Braided lines
    CP-E S2 RMM ll Hankook RS3 235/40/17 ll Forge V1 BPV ll Whiteline RSB ll AutoTech HPFP
    ll Spin-on Conversion ll Rear Diffuser
    DGR Coilovers ll LED Replacement lights ll "08-MPS" plates ll Cobb AP V3 (E85) ll CP-e TBE ll OCC






  15. #95

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    This is an interesting video



    It's old I know, but I guess it still applies

  16. #96

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    well you dont have to have different alignment settings for the track. it just means you can't go around as quick on the track with street settings. You can change the settings every time you head out, but unless you have the equipment to do the alignment yourself, its gonna get costly

    if you wanted to track on street settings, having another set of rims with slick tyres will probably be the best of both worlds if you weren't gonna change any settings.

  17. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by lup15 View Post
    well you dont have to have different alignment settings for the track. it just means you can't go around as quick on the track with street settings. You can change the settings every time you head out, but unless you have the equipment to do the alignment yourself, its gonna get costly

    if you wanted to track on street settings, having another set of rims with slick tyres will probably be the best of both worlds if you weren't gonna change any settings.
    And this is why I prob should have gotten those rx7's haha
    --> 2008 Metro Grey Sports Pack Gen1 <--

    CS SRI ll CS TIP ll CS AB ll 2XS SSP ll 2XS FMIC ll SURE Anchors ll Enkei RPF1's 17x9 +45 ll Lamin-X Fog Tint ll DBA T3 4000 series ll Remsa pads ll Braided lines
    CP-E S2 RMM ll Hankook RS3 235/40/17 ll Forge V1 BPV ll Whiteline RSB ll AutoTech HPFP
    ll Spin-on Conversion ll Rear Diffuser
    DGR Coilovers ll LED Replacement lights ll "08-MPS" plates ll Cobb AP V3 (E85) ll CP-e TBE ll OCC






  18. #98
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
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    Sunshine Coast, QLD
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    mazda 3 MPS alignment settings are pretty radical for a street car anyways. if you go with their specs, you wont have a problem on the track. you can start going more specific/specialized specs once you've had a go and started trialling other specs. you'll find a combo your like.

  19. #99

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    Was it you @AzzA SP20 that was telling me you had a set of different alignment specs for the MPS when we were at Bondi earlier in the year?

    In what way are they radical @projectrracing? What kind of values for toe, caster and camber are generic?

  20. #100
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Wollongong
    Posts
    846

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    RX7 Wheels FTW!!

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