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Thread: How to Handle Handling?

  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by GibbA View Post
    How does rear camber affect understeer? That last sentence of yours didn't make a great deal of sense.. (Either that or i'm too tired to understand)
    the car is a fwd/front engined car (FF). When you put the power down, the front wheels will lose traction because they are the powered wheels. its the opposite for RWD cars, the rears will lose traction and want to oversteer.

    the more negative camber you have, the more cornering traction you gain. but if both the front and rear have equal camber settings, you still have the problem of the front losing traction during a corner. hence you want more negative camber on the front than the rears

    I haven't explained the front engined aspect as we can't exactly change where the engine sits. but basically, there is a lot more load on the front tyres as that's where most of the weight sits. more load on the tyre means more grip usually, but when its overloaded you lose traction...
    Last edited by lup15; 19-08-2013 at 10:43 PM.

  2. #62

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    Aha! Makes perfect sense to me. Now this gets into the realm of dynamic camber, where camber increases (in the front) when the wheel is turned compared to when straight right? (or is the thinking behind it?)

  3. #63

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    yep that's why caster is so good. you gain dynamic camber the more you turn. Normally when you fight understeer, the car doesn't respond to your steering input. I have found that this isn't the case with Whiteline's ALK. The more I steer, the more the car turns in! I actually find myself turning in too much

  4. #64

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    MEGA HALLELUJAH MOMENT!

    Ok, so positive caster increases this dynamic camber or negative caster? (Which directions are these in?)

  5. #65
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    @lup15 someone that understands me I think im in love! Been banging on for years... At some point you will loose traction on the front wheels, what the back does than is up to you... If the back grips you will have understeer, it the back lets go you will oversteer. What you do with your car is up to you and what you prefer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  6. #66

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    I think i'm getting a little excited, this is all making so much sense now it's awesome!

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by GibbA View Post
    MEGA HALLELUJAH MOMENT!

    Ok, so positive caster increases this dynamic camber or negative caster? (Which directions are these in?)
    more positive caster. I don't even think you can get negative. you'll also get a wtf face from the suspension people :P

    @GibbA I would also suggest trying 235 tyres next. I don't think the extra width will give you much extra traction, but the reduced tyre wall from the 235 width will give you a better steering response.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedDjinn View Post
    @lup15 someone that understands me I think im in love! Been banging on for years... At some point you will loose traction on the front wheels, what the back does than is up to you... If the back grips you will have understeer, it the back lets go you will oversteer. What you do with your car is up to you and what you prefer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    haha, I know how you feel. handling tuning is a black art. I don't track my car, I do some fun runs through the mountains which is what I've set the car up for. I should head to the track though as then I won't be scared if I lose it. Really need to know what the car feels like when it does lose control so I know where the limits are. hmm... skidpan anyone?

    edit: also just elaborating on what RedDjinn is saying, you can set the car up to neutral steer or oversteer, the choice is yours. I prefer neutral steer but I think there is an inherent problem with FWD cars which can snap oversteer even with a neutral setup. I'm not sure whats going on here yet...
    Last edited by lup15; 19-08-2013 at 11:14 PM.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by lup15 View Post
    more positive caster. I don't even think you can get negative. you'll also get a wtf face from the suspension people :P
    so then positive caster is moving the wheel forward essentially?
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  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by lup15 View Post
    more positive caster. I don't even think you can get negative. you'll also get a wtf face from the suspension people :P

    @GibbA I would also suggest trying 235 tyres next. I don't think the extra width will give you much extra traction, but the reduced tyre wall from the 235 width will give you a better steering response.



    haha, I know how you feel. handling tuning is a black art. I don't track my car, I do some fun runs through the mountains which is what I've set the car up for. I should head to the track though as then I won't be scared if I lose it. Really need to know what the car feels like when it does lose control so I know where the limits are. hmm... skidpan anyone?

    edit: also just elaborating on what RedDjinn is saying, you can set the car up to neutral steer or oversteer, the choice is yours. I prefer neutral steer but I think there is an inherent problem with FWD cars which can snap oversteer even with a neutral setup. I'm not sure whats going on here yet...
    Very interesting thanks for explaining, what set up would u suggest if u want a little bit of oversteer like the focus ST.
    Thanks
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  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by GibbA View Post
    so then positive caster is moving the wheel forward essentially?
    sort of. the actual wheel doesn't move, it's the angles that the wheel is connected to the steering. you don't need to understand the physics behind, I don't either, but more so what you benefit from by having positive caster



    Quote Originally Posted by chef View Post
    Very interesting thanks for explaining, what set up would u suggest if u want a little bit of oversteer like the focus ST.
    Thanks
    more oversteer generally you want a stiff rear swaybar, higher rear tyre pressure and minimal rear negative camber. these are generally what you can control. there are other things like stiffer rear springs and stiffer rear shock settings but they tend to be more complicated. You can also create more oversteer by doing the opposite on the front. so weaker front sway bar, lower front tyre pressure etc.

    having said that you want each of the components to be doing their primary function. for example, you don't want the rear shocks to be stiff just so you can get oversteer. that's not their function, its to absorb bumps. you don't want the rear tyres with too much pressure otherwise you will get uneven wear etc. this is why handling tuning is so complicated

    furthermore, there are different stages when a car will transition from under to oversteer. I don't have the knowledge on this as it would be something that a track driver would have the experience with

  11. #71
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    Over steer can be got from... + camber, rear body bracing, rsb, less tyre pressure, even toe out.

  12. #72

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    I just noticed that myself and RedDjinn has said the opposite in that more or less rear tyre pressure will induce oversteer. this is a confusing concept, but it depends on the many other variables and thus both statements can be true

    the 5th post by Sam_68 in the following thread explains it in good detail Oversteer/understeer Tyre pressure query - PistonHeads

    I have the rear tyre pressure lower than the front as I'm going for neutral handling. the front has more weight (both static and underload) and hence requires a higher pressure to retain a certain sidewall stiffness. the rear I want to also retain a similar sidewall stiffness but requires less pressure as there isn't as much weight. this also depends on the tyre itself as some tyres have a stiffer wall to begin with. all the variables!

    fastest way around a corner is grip driving :P

  13. #73

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    Wow this got technical fast.

    But good learning! Stuff I never knew! I don't think I'm 2.5 all round, the front is running more than the rear from memory. I'll have to look up my exact measurements. But it was close to pushing 2.5 and that's without any modifications, just coilovers and low.

    Basically mines crap because it looks mad :P but hey, mine sees a carpark 98% of the time!

    *goes back into the darkness*


    Sent from my iFail using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Ben992; 20-08-2013 at 12:54 AM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by lup15 View Post
    The mps has extra bracing from factory, so I wouldn't add bracing based on the sp23. Having said that, I would be curious which braces help the most and in what way
    care to share what that extra bracing is?

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by lup15 View Post
    more oversteer generally you want a stiff rear swaybar, higher rear tyre pressure and minimal rear negative camber. these are generally what you can control. there are other things like stiffer rear springs and stiffer rear shock settings but they tend to be more complicated. You can also create more oversteer by doing the opposite on the front. so weaker front sway bar, lower front tyre pressure etc.
    you might wanna type that post again.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by lup15 View Post
    if you don't want the car to understeer, -2.5 is way too much in the rear if you have -2.5 on the front, just the nature of a FF platform. It seems the primary concern you are running that camber is to fit the wheels.
    ever driven a car on the track with proper r spec tyres and had had most of the weight removed from the back?

    sorry i dont mean to single you out, but you posts aren't really making much sense in a track use kind of way. alot of what you have sais goes against 10 years or motorsports experience and tutoring i have been involved in.

    do you track your car or have you ever tracked it more than once?
    Last edited by projectrracing; 20-08-2013 at 03:15 PM.

  17. Default

    So today sucks at work... and looks like i am now due for a knee reconstruction.

    so i feel like opening up a can of worms for my entertainment...
    2 different perspectives and approaches to achieve the desired handling effect.

    1) Reduce rear grip to induce more oversteer.

    orrrrrr

    2) Increase front grip... which will in turn induce oversteer.

  18. #78
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    the arse follows the front. control the front, and adjust the arse to suit.

    if you do it the other way, then you are just slowing yourself up.

  19. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by projectrracing View Post
    you might wanna type that post again.
    type what again? increasing the the rear tyre pressure on the rear, opposite to that is decreasing the front tyre pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by projectrracing View Post
    ever driven a car on the track with proper r spec tyres and had had most of the weight removed from the back?

    sorry i dont mean to single you out, but you posts aren't really making much sense in a track use kind of way. alot of what you have sais goes against 10 years or motorsports experience and tutoring i have been involved in.

    do you track your car or have you ever tracked it more than once?
    I dont drive on the track and have made that clear. My focus on handlng improvements is for the steet. but what I write is from what I have read and researched on handling. If you care to explain where I am mistaken, I am more than happy to be educated. There is more than 1 way of having a car setup. My responses were for STREET car where they aren't stripped to bare metal. I've made that clear that -2.5 is too much for the street.

    not all settings on the track will work in the street environment. example, you would run a stiffer shock/spring combo on a track car which would cause further balance issues, hence warranting a large negative camber

    Quote Originally Posted by projectrracing View Post
    care to share what that extra bracing is?
    mid chassis brace, rear trunk brace, front strut tower brace. think there were the main ones

  20. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by projectrracing View Post
    the arse follows the front. control the front, and adjust the arse to suit.

    if you do it the other way, then you are just slowing yourself up.
    Too right buddy, Hence why i said handling effect both give the driver the same "feel" as such... but one is faster
    But its a very good thing to think about when playing with swaybars, spring rates and dampening.

    Most people thing "i want more oversteer" so increase spring rate and dampening force in the rear.... but leaving the front as is.

    What really should be happening is you adjust the front end first to optimise front grip, then make your rear adjustments based of your new found front grip.

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