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Thread: How to Handle Handling?

  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by GibbA View Post

    Question about rear camber arms, buy a set of actual arms or not?
    The whiteline "arms" I was offered I found out are stock with camber "Bushes" inserted. What is general opinion on these?
    Michaels? He offered them to me too. They only give you roughly -1 of camber anyways.

    Install your coilovers, once you do that you will be amazed at how much better the car is. I was going to do bracing and such like I had on the sp20 like you, but the mps doesn't really "need" it. However I'm not a twisties run kind of a guy these days.

    Also, you'll get a butt load more camber when you install your coils. I'm running around -2.5 all round just with coilovers in and sitting at 120mm (sensible height)




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  2. #22

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    Well i don't want that much, more the idea to remove it once lowering. AzzA said that the rear pulls in the minute you start to lower and your story backs up that claim. +/- 1° camber I guess would prob be all I need in adjustment for camber then.
    Yeah they are Michael's.

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  3. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Sunshine Coast, QLD
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    458

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    Quote Originally Posted by GibbA View Post
    Yes I agree with the track day comment too, but feel it's more worth my time and money to take something to the track that's better than stock. Especially, take the same car to the track that i'll be driving daily, as then I'll actually be learning the car I drive every day.
    And yes I understand some people are better than other when it comes to the track. I'm not expecting to be the next race car driver, but I know I want to put 100% effort in and get as good as I can because driving is a big passion of mine
    You'll actually learn more from a stock car than than a modified car due to if behaving more wildly. But it not something you cannot bypass if you can study car behaviour correctly.

    As Ben said, when you get coilovers, you'll most likely lower it and that lowering will create more -ve camber.

    As for rear camber adjustment. The whiteline bushes allow you so adjust camber 1 degree plus/minus. The arms allow 2.5 degrees plus/minus. Your choice which way you go. But I'd do them after the coilover install so you know which option will be more suited to your needs.

    Not sure about the toe comments going around. All cars have toe adjust as standard.
    Last edited by projectrracing; 19-08-2013 at 08:10 AM.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben992 View Post
    Michaels? He offered them to me too. They only give you roughly -1 of camber anyways.

    Install your coilovers, once you do that you will be amazed at how much better the car is. I was going to do bracing and such like I had on the sp20 like you, but the mps doesn't really "need" it. However I'm not a twisties run kind of a guy these days.

    Also, you'll get a butt load more camber when you install your coils. I'm running around -2.5 all round just with coilovers in and sitting at 120mm (sensible height)
    -2.5 camber all round? that's insane unless you're tracking the car every weekend. The more rear -ve camber you have, the more understeer you will get unless you are doing some ridiculous stuff with tyre pressures, shock and rear swaybar stiffness. you want to have neutral or slightly oversteer handling.

    with regards to the rear camber arms, I was also told that you can change the camber on the car (OEM) but it also changes toe at the same time. Hence get rear toe arms so camber and toe can be adjusted separately.

    Also driver mod is great to get from a track, but I would not be using track settings on the street. The track has a very smooth surface, whereas the roads have varying surfaces. you want the shock absorbers to be doing their job, absorbing the bumps. if it is too stiff and the car bounces, you will lose traction going around a corner.

    I recently installed whiteline's anti-lift kit (ALK) and it made a noticeable difference to cornering. it adds caster (dynamic camber increases as you corner) and induces lift/dive so that the shock absorbers can do their work during corners.

    I would also recommend that you change parts in stages you can get a feel of how the car handles with each improvement. that way, you can change appropriate settings when it comes to making adjustments.

    also read how handling works so you aren't going in blind
    Last edited by lup15; 19-08-2013 at 08:12 AM.

  5. Default

    too much talk about toe and camber in this thread and not enough about caster!

    for a daily Caster > Camber

    slight changes to your toe, with some poly bushings and bracing with rsb would be the killer street set up.

    No point in making alignment adjustments if you cant maintain it through a corner! (hence poly bushings and bracing).

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Sunshine Coast, QLD
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    458

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    developing convo was about the rears coming from the rear arms question. hence the discussion about toe/camber. if you wanna talk about fronts, then yes some bushes to increase caster and some bracing is the go. good advice.

  7. #27

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    With the RSB @GibbA was it enough to flick the back end around going around a corner just like a focus ST does

  8. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by projectrracing View Post
    developing convo was about the rears coming from the rear arms question. hence the discussion about toe/camber. if you wanna talk about fronts, then yes some bushes to increase caster and some bracing is the go. good advice.
    poly bushings in the rear end massively help toe deflection under heavy acceleration and heavy braking.
    Making for a more stable braking and turn in and keep the rear progressive. and will help with keeping the rear end pushing out under acceleration which helps combat on power under steer.

    also camber tops on the front can be rotated to supply masses amounts of caster. 5-7 deg would be nice
    static camber is of not much benefit for a street and occasional natio car to be honest.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
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    Sunshine Coast, QLD
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    Yeah Az agreed. But I dont think Gibba is up at that stage yet. Just need to get those coilovers in and a front brace. RSB is already in. Then trial on the track (if need be) and the start going for the more advanced stuff. No good going nuts and doing it all at once.

  10. #30

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    All this suspension talk is very technical, interesting though

  11. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by projectrracing View Post
    Yeah Az agreed. But I dont think Gibba is up at that stage yet. Just need to get those coilovers in and a front brace. RSB is already in. Then trial on the track (if need be) and the start going for the more advanced stuff. No good going nuts and doing it all at once.
    I know... but still just putting some more ideas out there
    personally,
    stage 1 of MPS upgrade here is what i would do:

    Rear Sway bar, Rear strut brace, Lower tie bar (LCA Brace), and possibly Front strut brace.

    Stage 2: consider new shock spring combo or Coilovers.

    Stage 3: Now you really have to consider poly bushings all round, with added caster etc.

    Stage 4: time to get serious with extra bracing / cage. Running semi slicks, and better coilovers/ swaybar set up.

  12. #32

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    The mps has extra bracing from factory, so I wouldn't add bracing based on the sp23. Having said that, I would be curious which braces help the most and in what way

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Moorooka, Brisbane
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    48
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    7,059

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    Quote Originally Posted by AzzA SP20 View Post
    I know... but still just putting some more ideas out there
    personally,
    stage 1 of MPS upgrade here is what i would do:

    Rear Sway bar, Rear strut brace, Lower tie bar (LCA Brace), and possibly Front strut brace.

    Stage 2: consider new shock spring combo or Coilovers.

    Stage 3: Now you really have to consider poly bushings all round, with added caster etc.

    Stage 4: time to get serious with extra bracing / cage. Running semi slicks, and better coilovers/ swaybar set up.
    If this version of Tapatalk support thanks/like I would have done so.

    But because I appreciate it so much, I'm going to go in via browser and push that button.

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    Long live the Redbull ... V2



  14. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lup15 View Post
    The mps has extra bracing from factory, so I wouldn't add bracing based on the sp23. Having said that, I would be curious which braces help the most and in what way
    I agree that bracing isn't as important on the MPS after ripping them apart. But i still stand pretty strong on adding LCA brace at a minimum.
    and althought extra bracing my not have as much of a profound noticeable effect on the mps compared to other cars... the difference is certainly there when yo are really pushing the car (not coming from my own car, as it stock... but family friends BK MPS which i have driven quite a bit)

  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by projectrracing View Post
    You'll actually learn more from a stock car than than a modified car due to if behaving more wildly. But it not something you cannot bypass if you can study car behaviour correctly.

    As Ben said, when you get coilovers, you'll most likely lower it and that lowering will create more -ve camber.

    As for rear camber adjustment. The whiteline bushes allow you so adjust camber 1 degree plus/minus. The arms allow 2.5 degrees plus/minus. Your choice which way you go. But I'd do them after the coilover install so you know which option will be more suited to your needs.

    Not sure about the toe comments going around. All cars have toe adjust as standard.

    Ok good advice there, I'll lower it and then see what needs doing. My guess is that I'll need to reduce the camber because this is how it stands already! O_o



    Quote Originally Posted by lup15 View Post
    -2.5 camber all round? that's insane unless you're tracking the car every weekend. The more rear -ve camber you have, the more understeer you will get unless you are doing some ridiculous stuff with tyre pressures, shock and rear swaybar stiffness. you want to have neutral or slightly oversteer handling.

    with regards to the rear camber arms, I was also told that you can change the camber on the car (OEM) but it also changes toe at the same time. Hence get rear toe arms so camber and toe can be adjusted separately.

    Also driver mod is great to get from a track, but I would not be using track settings on the street. The track has a very smooth surface, whereas the roads have varying surfaces. you want the shock absorbers to be doing their job, absorbing the bumps. if it is too stiff and the car bounces, you will lose traction going around a corner.

    I recently installed whiteline's anti-lift kit (ALK) and it made a noticeable difference to cornering. it adds caster (dynamic camber increases as you corner) and induces lift/dive so that the shock absorbers can do their work during corners.

    I would also recommend that you change parts in stages you can get a feel of how the car handles with each improvement. that way, you can change appropriate settings when it comes to making adjustments.

    also read how handling works so you aren't going in blind
    I'm intrigued about this 'anti lift kit', @MPSBNE mentioned it earlier and said he noticed a difference with it too. Are you meaning that it helps the wheels track straight when going over bumps?
    Like the bump steer kit does for corners, or am I completely off the point?

    I also agree about installing single things at a time, that's how i've approached things so far, and will continue to do so.
    --> 2008 Metro Grey Sports Pack Gen1 <--

    CS SRI ll CS TIP ll CS AB ll 2XS SSP ll 2XS FMIC ll SURE Anchors ll Enkei RPF1's 17x9 +45 ll Lamin-X Fog Tint ll DBA T3 4000 series ll Remsa pads ll Braided lines
    CP-E S2 RMM ll Hankook RS3 235/40/17 ll Forge V1 BPV ll Whiteline RSB ll AutoTech HPFP
    ll Spin-on Conversion ll Rear Diffuser
    DGR Coilovers ll LED Replacement lights ll "08-MPS" plates ll Cobb AP V3 (E85) ll CP-e TBE ll OCC






  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by AzzA SP20 View Post
    too much talk about toe and camber in this thread and not enough about caster!

    for a daily Caster > Camber

    slight changes to your toe, with some poly bushings and bracing with rsb would be the killer street set up.

    No point in making alignment adjustments if you cant maintain it through a corner! (hence poly bushings and bracing).
    Quote Originally Posted by projectrracing View Post
    developing convo was about the rears coming from the rear arms question. hence the discussion about toe/camber. if you wanna talk about fronts, then yes some bushes to increase caster and some bracing is the go. good advice.
    Quote Originally Posted by AzzA SP20 View Post
    poly bushings in the rear end massively help toe deflection under heavy acceleration and heavy braking.
    Making for a more stable braking and turn in and keep the rear progressive. and will help with keeping the rear end pushing out under acceleration which helps combat on power under steer.

    also camber tops on the front can be rotated to supply masses amounts of caster. 5-7 deg would be nice
    static camber is of not much benefit for a street and occasional natio car to be honest.
    How does caster help? As far as my knowledge goes, camber is the vertical angle of the wheel with the car, toe is the wheels essentially angled inward or outward about the vertical axis, and caster is moving the actual wheel forwards/backwards along the line of the car?
    --> 2008 Metro Grey Sports Pack Gen1 <--

    CS SRI ll CS TIP ll CS AB ll 2XS SSP ll 2XS FMIC ll SURE Anchors ll Enkei RPF1's 17x9 +45 ll Lamin-X Fog Tint ll DBA T3 4000 series ll Remsa pads ll Braided lines
    CP-E S2 RMM ll Hankook RS3 235/40/17 ll Forge V1 BPV ll Whiteline RSB ll AutoTech HPFP
    ll Spin-on Conversion ll Rear Diffuser
    DGR Coilovers ll LED Replacement lights ll "08-MPS" plates ll Cobb AP V3 (E85) ll CP-e TBE ll OCC






  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by chef View Post
    With the RSB @GibbA was it enough to flick the back end around going around a corner just like a focus ST does
    Havent' got a sweeping corner yet but a few decent size round abouts this morning and the front was letting go before the rear. That said, I needed to tighten my rear endlinks a little because they were making a bit of noise.
    Since then, I tightened them before I had to go into town and it seemed better in the rear, but there was none of this "Flick the back end out" action you're talking about. I'll need a good place to have a go around a corner pushing the car, but think it'll take more than a RSB to make the but "flick out".
    --> 2008 Metro Grey Sports Pack Gen1 <--

    CS SRI ll CS TIP ll CS AB ll 2XS SSP ll 2XS FMIC ll SURE Anchors ll Enkei RPF1's 17x9 +45 ll Lamin-X Fog Tint ll DBA T3 4000 series ll Remsa pads ll Braided lines
    CP-E S2 RMM ll Hankook RS3 235/40/17 ll Forge V1 BPV ll Whiteline RSB ll AutoTech HPFP
    ll Spin-on Conversion ll Rear Diffuser
    DGR Coilovers ll LED Replacement lights ll "08-MPS" plates ll Cobb AP V3 (E85) ll CP-e TBE ll OCC






  18. #38

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    Really appreciate the input guys. Keep it up

  19. #39
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Brisbane
    Age
    48
    Posts
    2,084

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    Quote Originally Posted by GibbA View Post
    Ok good advice there, I'll lower it and then see what needs doing. My guess is that I'll need to reduce the camber because this is how it stands already! O_o





    I'm intrigued about this 'anti lift kit', @MPSBNE mentioned it earlier and said he noticed a difference with it too. Are you meaning that it helps the wheels track straight when going over bumps?
    Like the bump steer kit does for corners, or am I completely off the point?

    I also agree about installing single things at a time, that's how i've approached things so far, and will continue to do so.
    Hey mate,
    as a leyman's perspective the car doesn't lift or dive when accelerating or braking and turning feels more direct...the car in general feels more stable and predictable...Whiteline sums it up pretty well

    "In stock form the front end of the Mazdaspeed3 has a tendency to move around which equate to less then predictable handling. The front end will lift up when accelerating and dive to the ground when braking aggressively. The anti-lift kit from Whiteline keeps the front end under control and provides the driver with more predictable handling. Altering the front control arm geometry through the new high tensile alloy mounts and low compliance poly bushings, changes the front suspension attitude to improve driver feel, feedback and confidence. The additional positive caster coupled with the new bushings serve to dramatically sharpen initial turn-in response and keep a truer alignment under racing conditions."
    2XS RACING $ CORKSPORT $ MAGNAFLOW $ ​UNSURE MOTORSPORTS $ COBB $ INJEN $ FULCRUM $ FEDERAL TYRES $ VISUAL GARAGE $ ADVANCED PERFORMANCE CENTRE $ B C M $ NGK $ STRATIFIED $ AUTOTECH $ DBA $ REMSA $ DGR $ MORIMOTO $ JBR $ FUSION

  20. #40

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    Thanks @MPSBNE. I've read all the info about the actual products etc, but I know they write that to sell their product.
    I'm just as interested (or perhaps even more) in hearing what YOU, the customer think of their kit, and from your comment, I like what I hear Thanks.

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