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Thread: Black Box Data Recorders (EDR's)

  1. #1
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    Default Black Box Data Recorders (EDR's)

    Might as well contribute to this forum, thanks everyone for the warm welcomes. Bit of background about me, I'm a accident investigator (Forensic Engineer). I am in no way affiliated with the police, government agencies or any other corporate companies, I work for a private company and we conduct independent investigations relating to collisions, industrial accidents, workplace accidents and of course car crashes. I apologize about how long this will be.

    95% of new vehicles sold in Australia are fitted with black box data recorders (correctly termed Event Data Recorders). If you have watched air crash investigation or know about black boxes in planes, well they are now used in vehicles. Before you jump up in arms I am here to say your privacy is well protected and you have nothing to worry about. If you need more re-assurance please read on!

    What is it?
    Before I go any further, this device is not the Black Box you will see in the news and the forums that are fitted by the owner and record video. The EDR is the device which monitors and records data about the vehicle. It is contained within the Airbag Control Module (or similar device as some manufacturers use different names). It is linked into a vast array of sensors within the vehicle. This module is responsible for deploying the airbags in the event of a crash. The EDR uses a circular buffer which will consistently overwrite itself with new data. The data begins recording from when the ignition is turned on.

    When the EDR identifies a collision, the data is locked down. If the airbags do not deploy the data will be recorded temporarily until a more severe event is recorded. If the airbags do deploy, the data is permanently locked.

    What does it record?
    This will vary from vehicle make and vehicle model. Most vehicles will record pre-impact speed (2.5 seconds to 5 seconds prior to impact), throttle position, brake pedal and accelerator pedal position, fault code logs, engine RPM, seatbelt status, cruise status and accelerations (using an inbuilt acceleration).

    In all vehicles I have come across (bar early 2000's Mustangs), the device will only record up to 5 seconds of pre-crash data and about 100 to 300ms of post crash data (this is in the form of accelerations in g's). The module does not record audio or video.

    In addition, the module will not record data (which can be accessed) if no collision has occurred. This means that you cannot download data whilst you are driving or immediately after you have driven the vehicle, unless there has been an impact.

    Who Can Access it?
    The data can only be accessed by those who are trained and certified, and who possess the download kit. Currently in Victoria, there are approximately 10 people who are certified to do this, with the majority being part of the Major Collision Investigation Unit of the Victoria Police. This data can however be accessed by the manufacturer, but this is rarely done unless ordered by a court order. This is not publicly available and it cannot be accessed directly by insurance companies. I can however say that I do downloads for insurance companies from time to time.

    How is it used?
    There are 2 main uses for this data. The first relates to criminal cases and occasionally civil liability cases. The MCIU will download data from all vehicles that they can. The information contained within the module will then be used for the purpose of a collision reconstruction. Data obtained has been used in courts and has been accepted within the legal system. The second use is for insurance companies. Where the insurer has concerns regarding the truthfulness of a claim, we will be called and will investigate the circumstances. The biggest use is in determining speed. If you are travelling in excess of 35km/h to 45km/h depending on the state (Dangerous Driving), your insurance will be void if you have a crash. It is also used in determining whether a collision was staged (setup).

    Can it be Disabled?
    Technically yes, you can remove the Airbag Control Module, but this will deactivate all of the SRS devices in the vehicle and you are risking your own life. It cannot be hacked or modified. This will also void your insurance as it is a very illegal modification, significantly reduce your TAC compensations and possibly result in criminal driving convictions if a passenger is injured in your vehicle. If you value your SRS devices, you cannot disable and cannot bypass it.

    Should you be worried?
    Absolutely not! This cannot be used for trivial matters, e.g. If you get pulled over for speeding. The module ONLY records up to 5 seconds of data which will be lost as soon as the ignition moves to "ON" unless there is a crash. This will only be used if investigators like myself are called, or if the MCIU are called (requires alcohol, drugs, more than 3 fatalities or excessive speed unless specifically requested by attending police).
    This device can protect you. How many collisions do you see on the news where some idiot was being beyond stupid and killed an innocent person? If that was your friend/family (and i sincerely hope no one here will ever experience that) would you want the person responsible brought to justice? Well the data contained within your car (e.g. a Mazda) will tell me exactly what the vehicle which crashed into the Mazda was doing at impact (Conservation of Momentum and Newton's Laws). Thus, if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about.

    Additional Info
    By law, the owner of the vehicle is the rightful owner of the data. The MCIU can access it due to their powers in attending collisions. If you own the vehicle, you must give permission for the data to be accessed.

    The data can be accessed in as little as 2 minutes.

    Mazda, Holden, Ford, Toyota, Daimler-Chrysler family, Subaru, BMW, Mercedes, VW, Seat, Izuzu, Volvo, SAAB, Fiat, Infiniti, Lancia, Rolls-Royce, these are some of the vehicles which record data.

    Now this is very different to a black box HD recorder (I also have one in my car).

    I am happy to answer any questions about this stuff!

    I must stress, I am not a lawyer, nor do I have any legal qualifications, I am an engineer. None of this should be taken as legal advice. If you are involved in a collision or dispute, get legal representation ASAP. Your lawyers will likely engage someone like us.

    Sources: I am trained to do this, I use this every week and I have downloaded data from many vehicles, among those Mazda's.
    Last edited by bluey06; 15-07-2013 at 01:52 PM.
    2006 MPS Sports

  2. #2

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    Awesome to learn something new

    I never knew this and it must be interesting to do as a job

    Welcome again mate and I hope to catch up at a meet one day/night


    Peter "SLIXX"

  3. #3
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    Woah, that's awesome info...
    Sounds like a black box recorder in a plane

  4. #4
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    Cheers Peter.

    They are similar to what is used in planes, but the data contained is only approx 5 seconds pre-crash rather than hours. Older Mustangs did record up to 15 minutes of data, but this does not happen anymore.

    You can buy (we sell them at work) HD black boxes for cars that mount onto your windscreen. A true black box (aftermarket) will record video, audio, GPS (hence speed and location), time and accelerations. If it does not record all of these it is not a true black box data recorder, it's just a HD video recorder. I will attach a link to some of the videos I have on these after work.
    2006 MPS Sports

  5. #5
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    Thanks for the info. Very interesting!

  6. #6

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    Thanks for info, had no idea

  7. #7
    Join Date
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    Melbourne , Victoria
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    Thanks mate I learned something new today

  8. #8

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    Very interesting post, thanks.

    What is your experience with these windscreen mount data recorders? I've seen all manner of fun (places people mount them, fiddling with them while they drive, internal cabin reflection from bright LED's at night etc)... Have you seen them successfully used in investigations where they have influenced the outcome of insurance and / or court proceedings, or are they just toys?

    Regs,
    Tims

  9. #9
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    With regards to windscreen mount recorders there are two main types, true event data recorders (record video, audio, GPS and accelerations) and HD cameras (may record GPS). We sell and fit Smarty camera recorders to cars and trucks. The entry level unit is a self contained single camera system which I have. I have no issues with reflections at all. With the Mazda, there is a slight reflection at the bottom of the windscreen but nothing that impacts on the view out the windscreen. We fit multicamera systems (mostly to trucks) and they are amazing.

    Not doing a plug on our cameras, but I have found that the ones we are currently selling are the best all round event data recorder. The BX1500 which I have is about $280 and does HD video (could be better quality particularly at night but we are pushing the manufacturer to improve it), accelerations, audio and GPS. The best systems have up to 8 cameras and cost up to $5000 to $6000 depending on options. Other aftermarket systems either have excellent video quality but lack the other features (making it nothing more than a GoPro) or have idiotic features like constant audible warnings and poor quality video, or they cost an arm and a leg.

    If the unit doesn't record accelerations (important because GPS isn't accurate and this give an additional layer of data), GPS and audio it isn't a true event data recorder. In this case you are better of getting a GoPro or similar.

    I can say that I have fitted and sold cameras to fleet vehicles, emergency services and many transport companies. They are used mostly in dispute resolution (identifying who was at fault) but I can say that the video footage and data from systems I have fitted has been used in police statements and civil proceedings.

    Really, the most important feature is video with GPS location and a timestamp. You do need the time stamp at a minimum and GPS will help pinpoint your location if the video is needed. Mine is in my car for my own insurance policy (as with most of the systems I fit). I have seen them used for insurance purposes to determine fault and also back up the driver's statement regarding the version of events. My camera is my own insurance policy since I have some distrust of insurers.

    Here is a link to our youtube page. There is a heap of videos of there of us crashing cars, making computer simulations and testing we do (enjoy the destruction) but there are also videos from our own vehicles. We upload footage from our cameras there. There is a mix of HD and non HD units there.
    Close call on SMARTY camera - YouTube Enjoy
    Last edited by bluey06; 16-07-2013 at 11:02 AM.
    2006 MPS Sports

  10. #10

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    Hi Again,

    Nice write up - those SMARTY EDR's do look good. I'm still in two minds, but what you've said has put me closer to buying one. That said I now mostly work from home so spend less time on the Freeway which is where I catch most of the antics.

    Nice reaction time on that Merc too.

    Cheers,
    Tims

  11. #11

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    What exactly do you mean by its your own insurance policy? You saying you don't have one?

    Sent from my LG-P880 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by GibbA View Post
    What exactly do you mean by its your own insurance policy? You saying you don't have one?

    Sent from my LG-P880 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
    The problem with my job is I see some of the things that do go wrong, particularly with insurance. I would never drive a car without insurance, for that fact comprehensive insurance. As sad as it is, there are people in this world who will do anything they can to screw you. Unfortunately with most insurance related cases we don't get the best information, and without good evidence it is difficult to do a good reconstruction. An example would be, you say a driver overtook you, cut in front of you and slammed the brakes. You had no where to go and crashed into the back of them. That driver says that didn't happen and they gradually slowed down and you crashed into them. This is very difficult to reconstruct as there is no big difference in the collision mechanics. If I had a camera in the car, the camera would show what happened.

    We also get cases to investigate insurance fraud. If you are involved in a crash and there are some other factors at play, you can have your insurance policy denied on the basis they believe it is fraud (you intentionally caused damaged to your vehicle to write it off or have it repaired). Some of these cases are valid, but other times they are not.

    The legal fees to fight the insurance company run into the tens of thousands of dollars. Sadly many people can't afford to fight it in court and accept it. Having the camera in my car is my insurance against that.

    I don't want to be plugging our own product or anything. I have heard of people using a product called Vision Drive. It is a little bit cheaper than the SMARTY but the video quality is worse. It is an alternative. If anyone is considering getting a camera I would strongly encourage getting one with HD video, GPS and accelerometer If you don't get one with these features you should just get a HD video camera.

    The aftermarket systems are a supplement to the in built EDR's. In built EDR's are the future. I can say that in a few years time they will likely be mandatory in Australia for all new vehicles.
    2006 MPS Sports

  13. Default

    Most vehicles that are equipped with air bags also have a crash recording system known as an event data recorder (EDR). The purpose of EDR device is to determine the information surrounding a car crash. But for some, the EDR represents an unnerving invasion of privacy. Read this here: Event data recorders: Saving lives and invading privacy.

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