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Thread: Feedback on the Cobb AP…?

  1. #41
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    I've downloaded and installed ATR, being a 'tech' wanted to get a better understanding of how the tables, maps work, and hopefully further my understanding of the COBB AP. I also wanted to try and figure out why the Hypertech at lower revs to me feels like it delivers more power.

    Anyway, so I loaded the following maps in ATR to investigate the boost targets in the stock map and then all the maps up to the top Stage2+TIH+IC.

    It appears the boost is tapered on purpose below 3000rpm, in any map other than the stock map. This to me may explain why using the Hypertech I felt the 'kick' so much earlier under 3000pm than with the AP. Under 3000pm, the COBB AP power delivery seemed 'controlled', maybe to reduce torque steer ?

    Here is a side by side comparison of the Stock map (left) vs Stage 1 + intake + TIP. (I've compared all the maps all the way up to Stage2+TIH+IC. Under 3000pm boost levels are way down).

    Maybe I'm reading these maps wrong and I still don't have an understanding of the all the other tables. Anyone care to comment ?

    I'll post this on the COBB forums and maybe Braden can enlighten a noob like me

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  2. #42

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    I believe it has to do with the risk of going into boost under 3000rpm, with increased power and going into boost at a low RPM we risk bent piston rods.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnt View Post
    I believe it has to do with the risk of going into boost under 3000rpm, with increased power and going into boost at a low RPM we risk bent piston rods.
    I'm a bit confused.

    Why would a stock map (I assume Mazda standard settings on a non-modified car) have more boost at lower RPMs and consider it a safe setting ?
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  4. #44

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    That's a good point, I guess it may have something to do with more of the tables in the map for making power in conjunction with the boost tables (like fuel, Ignition and load tables), and the fact that the stock tune is a load based tune and Cobb's tune is a boost based tune may also have something to do with it, I look forward to hearing what Braden will say about it, cause like you I am have a great time playing around with ATR and am thirsty for knowledge. Cheers.

  5. #45

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    I think it has to do with the rate at which the boost builds. Restrictor pill in the wastegate line? Makes boost shoot up super fast in the stock setup, so maybe they try taper it off in the tune so that it is a more linear curve......in dunno.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMOKEY View Post
    I think it has to do with the rate at which the boost builds. Restrictor pill in the wastegate line? Makes boost shoot up super fast in the stock setup, so maybe they try taper it off in the tune so that it is a more linear curve......in dunno.
    I'm thinking they try and taper it off to make it nicer and smoother power delivery..

    ---------- Post added at 09:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by jnt View Post
    That's a good point, I guess it may have something to do with more of the tables in the map for making power in conjunction with the boost tables (like fuel, Ignition and load tables), and the fact that the stock tune is a load based tune and Cobb's tune is a boost based tune may also have something to do with it, I look forward to hearing what Braden will say about it, cause like you I am have a great time playing around with ATR and am thirsty for knowledge. Cheers.
    I work in IT and like to fiddle with tech stuff...A program like ATR is very dangerous...and I must try and avoid the temptation to play around ..otherwise ..zzb !

    At this stage I just find the whole AP thing very interesting...
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  7. #47
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    Got this reply overnight from Braden on the COBB Forums -

    Naasif,

    This is a very good question. It is actually something that is being looked at in our upcoming map update. In the past, we've tried to keep a smooth transition into boost between the 2500-3000rpm range so the vehicle will not overshoot the target and cause an imbalance to the power delivery. On the v210 mapping, the ECU is still using a mix of load targets and boost targets to achieve a smooth boost curve. With our next update, all of the load based targets will be removed, and the boost targets will be higher in the lower range to allow for greater use of the boost and wastegate dynamics. If you're curious about how the car may respond with additional boost in the target table, go ahead and fill in the 2500rpm column with higher values. It's a great way to start seeing how the car responds to changes, and if those changes net a positive or negative result to your driving experience.

    Thank You,
    -Braden @ COBB
    Good to know our original assumption about smooth power delivery vs driveability was correct
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  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by naasif View Post
    I work in IT and like to fiddle with tech stuff...A program like ATR is very dangerous...and I must try and avoid the temptation to play around ..otherwise ..zzb !

    At this stage I just find the whole AP thing very interesting...
    Hahaha, Naasif, its not the program that is dangerous its what people do with the program that can be dangerous. the advice I found for ATR noobs like myself on another forum is "make small incremental changes and monitor each time you make a change" that way I am learning the effect of each change as I make it.

    Its great to learn from this forum and other like it
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  9. #49
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    sup guys, on the precipice of buying the AP...

    Couple of Q's you guys may know answers to.

    1. HPFP vs Stock internals replaced? are there some Pro's vs. Con's for each?
    2. The ability to modify/create custom maps, is this extra cost on top of the AP?

    Sig is up to date with mods.

    Thanks guys, appreciate your thoughts, if this is too far off topic ill move it.


    --------------------Edited--------------------

    Nevermind, read up more. im going to buy AP and Autotech internals to be safe.
    Last edited by Dices; 24-07-2012 at 12:55 AM.
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  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Stratified View Post
    Hey guys and gals, it seems there is some confusion about COBB's OTS maps and what to make of upgrades. Here are a few thoughts:

    1. The stage of the map simply refers to the amount of load, boost, and timing the map will run. The Stage 2 maps will target higher power levels than a Stage 1. So how is that related to the mods list? (read on below ... )

    2. The HPFP: The more airflow that enters the motor, the higher demands for fuel. That airflow increase comes from increased boost. The HPFP is a cam driven pump and it will struggle with 16-17psi or greater on the stock turbo. A larger turbo will push it over the edge at lower boost. If you have a very nice flowing exhaust and intake then you will need an HPFP at even lower boost levels ... and on top of this not everyone's car will behave the same. To take the guess out of this, I suggest you perform a test. Load the map that you will run and do a 4th gear WOT run from 3k RPM to redline on a COLD night. The cold air is denser and will stress the pump further. If you see fuel pressure drop in the 1500-1400 psi range under WOT you know it's time for an upgrade. However there is more to this. If the ECU senses detonation, it will pull timing AND richen the fuel mixture. If this is the case, and the pump is on the edge, then it will bring pressure down quickly.

    So why do you care about pressure? Well, the direct injection system acts against cylinder pressure when injecting the fuel. The lower the pressure in the fuel system the harder it will be to deliver that fuel and the fuel will atomize and mix with the air poorly. If this happens you not only lose performance, but knock can occur which may lead to the dreaded zoom zoom boom. So my suggestion is to buy the upgraded fuel pump for peace of mind, especially if you have exhaust modifications installed.

    3. Now what about other modifications? Well, I will tell you that on the MPS cars the turbo is the largest restriction. So it doesn't take much to "max it out." The biggest bang for the buck in terms of performance will be an HPFP, an intake, a race pipe, step colder plugs, and a custom AP or VersaTuner tune. This will maximize what the stock turbo can do and with high quality fuel and reasonable ambient temperatures you will be close to 300whp (220kw). Having tuned 90+ MPS cars this is what I can recommend for the stock turbo. Remember this is not OTS Stage maps since these are not built for a particular customer car and are more conservative to fit a broad audience. You can see some results in the blog here (Blog : Stratified Automotive Controls)

    In terms of the OTS maps, with an upgraded HPFP you can go ahead and run stage 2 maps. I would only consider the HPFP as the must have modification for running stage 2 ... and in some cases even stage 1.

    A downpipe is nice but I would get a front mount intercooler or methanol injection to cool the charge air before going with a downpipe since the gains from timing are more beneficial. After that I would get the downpipe but the gains start to be diminishing.

    Also if you have access to E85, with a custom tune, it does wonders in small mix quantities like 25%. You can expect the cars to make 320-340whp (235-250kw at the wheels) and 400 ft lbs of torque (540nm at the wheels) on the stock turbo.

    Beyond this you will need a larger turbo.










    When you speak of exhaust mods i bought my 07 mps 6 with a 3" middle section installed from the previous owner, now upon emailing a talking to mrt performance about best way to get the some more power out of it, and explaining the exhaust had a 3" middle section all Brett said was your engine is at risk, and upon asking how he said it's complicated and to read articles on their webpage. but i couldn't find anything do you or does anyone know what he means ???? it's only from the dump pipe flange to where it Y's off into 2 which is then factory sizing.

  11. #51

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    he's basically just suggesting that the de-restriction of the 3" section without adjustments to the tune might lead to the engine running lean.

    i's say it's unlikely as most of the restriction is in the down pipe - and if you're on the stock tune, it's naturally rich by design anyway.

    but in merit, he is right, and it might be worth doing a power run on his dyno just to check the AFR's.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supereunos View Post
    When you speak of exhaust mods i bought my 07 mps 6 with a 3" middle section installed from the previous owner, now upon emailing a talking to mrt performance about best way to get the some more power out of it, and explaining the exhaust had a 3" middle section all Brett said was your engine is at risk, and upon asking how he said it's complicated and to read articles on their webpage. but i couldn't find anything do you or does anyone know what he means ???? it's only from the dump pipe flange to where it Y's off into 2 which is then factory sizing.
    Rubbish.
    More gains with the DP and I had been running that for about 3 years before a tune.
    Its scare tactics like this that turn me off certain places, and its certainly not the first time ive seen it.

    If you are going STG2 then you will need a fuel pump before the tune. have a look at the requirements on the Cobb website or in sams big thread.

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  13. #53

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    i'm not having a go at anyone, place of business, or individual - but these places rely on people being uninformed, unresearched or unwilling to have a go themselves. It's their cream on top - they sell convenience and confidence at a premium - which I have no problem with.

    But it always pays to seek a second opinion, or even better, the opinion of a forum full of knowledgable people (sic). Sometimes the advice you have been given is entirely correct, but at least you can then be confident you're not being taken for a fool.

    Maybe have a talk to them about matching the rest of the exhaust from the turbo back.

  14. #54
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    Default Re: Feedback on the Cobb AP…?

    @MPS2NV explained it all to me a while back...

    I'll see if I can ms paint up a "what happens to fuel pressure" diagram

  15. #55
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    I did ?

  16. #56
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    Default Re: Feedback on the Cobb AP…?

    Quote Originally Posted by MPS2NV View Post
    I did ?
    It was probably while you were drunk

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  17. #57
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    Too Much JD eh Mitch... My Cobb AP arrived today. yayz...

  18. #58
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    Default Re: Feedback on the Cobb AP…?

    Quote Originally Posted by MPS2NV View Post
    I did ?

    You did, when you did Joe's internals
    Did a very good of explaining it as well, it's much easier to understand when you have the parts in front of you
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  19. #59
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    Figjamwid

  20. #60
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    Anyone tried these new beta maps as yet ? - I've posted a link into the COBB FAQ -

    COBB AccessPORT for Turbo Mazda3/6 Goes Global, New PURE Boost OTS Maps and More! - http://blogs.cobbtuning.com/2012/10/...maps-and-more/

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