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Thread: Big Turbo questions

  1. #1
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    Default Big Turbo questions

    Hey guys,

    seeing as you're now vendors etc just thought i would ask some questions following up from this thread:
    http://www.ozmpsclub.com/forum/edge-...solutions.html

    know that there is 2 others who have bought big hairdryers off you as well, so this could be relevant to them as well

    I remember seeing some discussions on a thread in MSF about a few of these things, but searching those boards is painful (cant search for 3 letter words), and asking will just get me insults and/or told to "search you brownie ****"

    I remember some of the tuners discussing EWG/IWG along with MBC and EBC, think they were saying the best combo for the 2 is EWG/EBC and IWG/MBC. Is there any specific reason for this? or is it just a tuners preference?

    I've picked up a GT3071r IWG, and have a gimmspeed EBCS, primarily cause i would like to be able to limit the amount of boost in 1st and 2nd a little (also less screwing around with EWG), but also cause it gives me the ability to vary the amount of boost throughout the rev range, rather than being limited to a certain PSI in boost.

    Also, with the Grimmspeed EBCS, i read about some people running it in "2-port mode" with a "pill" rather than "3-port mode", just wondering if you could share some light on each of these 2 options?

    Finally i've read that you should be able to flow enough air in the stock sized 2.5" MAF to get 400fwhp (300fwkw), if people dont need/want more than that, is there any specific need to upgrade to the 3" MAF housing?

    sorry for the essay
    Last edited by SarcasticOne; 20-02-2012 at 04:03 PM.
    Newbie FAQ My Build Thread
    From stock, to GT3071, to substantially less modded, many lessons learned!
    3" HTP | 100 Cel DP | Autotech HPFP | AP V3 - Self Tuned on E20 | JBR RSB | CPE S2 REM | JBR Shifter Bushings

  2. #2
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    I had issue with a corksports MAF, you will need at least 3'. The air pulled to fast throught the smaller MAF to read it and caused miss reading resulting in backfires etc with only 17psi using 3076. I HIGHLY recommend a 3' MAF (Rayd is also using 3' MAF) Even if you dont need it for you boost/power, its good to do it as you can get a better reading on your airflow.

    With your Grim speed EBC correct me if im wrong.. Its controled by your ecu, with the AP port you can limit your gears . Not 100% on the AP BUT if you can adjust the % amount this is a win for you
    Many want Power not many hold it long.........

  3. #3

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    Well if it means anything , I'm still getting backfires (thanks more likely due to the 50/50 BOV) but on occasion I still get too high voltage MAF reading CELs, usually on a cold day under WOT, so even at 19PSI the amount of air is still too fast even with the 3" MAF, I would say the stock 2.75" would be even worse...

    Mate have a look to see if the IWG has been ported, because on earlier versions they had a protrusion under the flap which was just nonsense and blocked air exit, but I find that the IWG is more than adequate to function till at least 20PSI . People in the states are holding 24-26PSI on IWG from this turbo.

    Hopefully soon enough I'll do a forged build and retune to 24PSI and I'll have more info

  4. #4
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    yeah, that's why i got the EBCS luke... my question is in relation to 2-port and 3-port modes

    you both say you need a 3" MAF, but how come the guys in the states have between 350 and 380hp with "standard" sized SRI's, ie cobb SRI's, that's on pump gas as well...

    also rayd, if you want more than 21.5psi, need to upgrade the MAP sensor to a 3-bar
    Newbie FAQ My Build Thread
    From stock, to GT3071, to substantially less modded, many lessons learned!
    3" HTP | 100 Cel DP | Autotech HPFP | AP V3 - Self Tuned on E20 | JBR RSB | CPE S2 REM | JBR Shifter Bushings

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by SarcasticOne View Post
    yeah, that's why i got the EBCS luke... my question is in relation to 2-port and 3-port modes

    you both say you need a 3" MAF, but how come the guys in the states have between 350 and 380hp with "standard" sized SRI's, ie cobb SRI's, that's on pump gas as well...

    also rayd, if you want more than 21.5psi, need to upgrade the MAP sensor to a 3-bar
    yer i think it has to do with tuning methods aswell, since in the states they have the AP, they are able to edit alot more parameters in particular, MAF levels and calibration, which the ECUtek cannot do atm, which means that until the AP arrives here and all parameters can be changed, then we have to live with getting bigger MAF housings to compensate for the increased speed of air flow. its also better because we can suck more air in

    btw, any more info on this 3-bar MAP requirement?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by rayd View Post
    btw, any more info on this 3-bar MAP requirement?
    we have a 2.5 BAR MAP sensor in our cars which is good for 22 psi max, a 3-bar MAP sensor takes it to almost 30psi
    i'll see if i can find more info...
    Newbie FAQ My Build Thread
    From stock, to GT3071, to substantially less modded, many lessons learned!
    3" HTP | 100 Cel DP | Autotech HPFP | AP V3 - Self Tuned on E20 | JBR RSB | CPE S2 REM | JBR Shifter Bushings

  7. #7

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    I'm not 100% sure on where exactly you need the bigger MAF housing because of people having different experiences based on their elevation and the amount of air that's truly entering the motor (not just based on a dyno power measurement after correction). It seems that 400-410whp is right around the magic number for maxing out the MAF. We work with a guy that tuned a Swedish car via VersaTune and he's using the CPE XcelXL Big MAF so I know if can be recalibrated through other ways than the AP. He has an IWG 3071R bolt-on kit. You can push the stock MAP sensor past the theoretical limit but I'm not sure how I just know people do it all the time.

    As far as the EBCS vs MBC, OP was exactly right and if I remember right the EBCS due to being electronically controlled can't react quick enough to changes in pressure so the WGDC ends up fluctuating too much as you try to get to your target boost. Because the EWG flows much better and more consistent, this problem goes away but with IWG it exists. I'm going to try and get the guy in here that tuned the Swedish BT MS3 and see if he'll give us a little technical info, more than I can provide. I'm not a tuner so my knowledge is limited.

    PLEASE PM or email eric@edgeautosport.com for all pricing and parts questions!!

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by SarcasticOne View Post
    Hey guys,

    seeing as you're now vendors etc just thought i would ask some questions following up from this thread:
    http://www.ozmpsclub.com/forum/edge-...solutions.html

    know that there is 2 others who have bought big hairdryers off you as well, so this could be relevant to them as well

    I remember seeing some discussions on a thread in MSF about a few of these things, but searching those boards is painful (cant search for 3 letter words), and asking will just get me insults and/or told to "search you brownie ****"

    I remember some of the tuners discussing EWG/IWG along with MBC and EBC, think they were saying the best combo for the 2 is EWG/EBC and IWG/MBC. Is there any specific reason for this? or is it just a tuners preference?

    I've picked up a GT3071r IWG, and have a gimmspeed EBCS, primarily cause i would like to be able to limit the amount of boost in 1st and 2nd a little (also less screwing around with EWG), but also cause it gives me the ability to vary the amount of boost throughout the rev range, rather than being limited to a certain PSI in boost.

    Also, with the Grimmspeed EBCS, i read about some people running it in "2-port mode" with a "pill" rather than "3-port mode", just wondering if you could share some light on each of these 2 options?

    Finally i've read that you should be able to flow enough air in the stock sized 2.5" MAF to get 400fwhp (300fwkw), if people dont need/want more than that, is there any specific need to upgrade to the 3" MAF housing?

    sorry for the essay
    Here's the down low on the EWG, IWG question. With an EWG you generally get better flow through the gate and can control boost creep better. This is especially important if the IWG of a turbo is not efficient and creeps with a big open exhaust or you are running high boost. It is more plumbing and more expensive to run an EWG so if you are planning on running an ATP turbo with an IWG, port the gate and have a downpipe with a high flow cat. That will ensure that you won't see creep even with the IWG.

    In terms of boost control - the MBC is very simple. You don't get the boost per gear features or the load targeting you do with an EBCS. Your boost will be a little lower when it's hot out and a little higher when it's cold.

    If you make use of the of the ECU's boost control logic and use a Grimmspeed solenoid (for example) you get some nice features such as boost control per gear/RPM and a more refined response but you or a tuner has to set it up properly or you may overshoot or undershoot targets.

    For a big turbo I would strongly suggest getting a larger than stock MAF housing/intake. This frees up a restriction since as you get close to the limit of the stock MAF size it's harder to suck air through it (think of running while breathing through a straw versus a big hose).

    As far as the map sensor is concerned, if you plan on running more than 21 psi of boost, you should get a 3 bar map sensor.
    Custom MazdaSpeed/Mazda MPS Tuning - VersaTune and COBB



  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by rayd View Post
    yer i think it has to do with tuning methods aswell, since in the states they have the AP, they are able to edit alot more parameters in particular, MAF levels and calibration, which the ECUtek cannot do atm, which means that until the AP arrives here and all parameters can be changed, then we have to live with getting bigger MAF housings to compensate for the increased speed of air flow. its also better because we can suck more air in

    btw, any more info on this 3-bar MAP requirement?
    You can't compare dynos, to many variables.

    All dynos in America will read higher. If you had the same car same temp a dyno here would read lower.

    From what I understand their dynos are old technology and at the end of the run when they stop the power run they dyno will continue and spike, realistically being up to 50-60 hp off what it should be.

    At the end of the day it's just a number and a tool.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    9,459

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Stratified View Post
    Here's the down low on the EWG, IWG question. With an EWG you generally get better flow through the gate and can control boost creep better. This is especially important if the IWG of a turbo is not efficient and creeps with a big open exhaust or you are running high boost. It is more plumbing and more expensive to run an EWG so if you are planning on running an ATP turbo with an IWG, port the gate and have a downpipe with a high flow cat. That will ensure that you won't see creep even with the IWG.

    In terms of boost control - the MBC is very simple. You don't get the boost per gear features or the load targeting you do with an EBCS. Your boost will be a little lower when it's hot out and a little higher when it's cold.

    If you make use of the of the ECU's boost control logic and use a Grimmspeed solenoid (for example) you get some nice features such as boost control per gear/RPM and a more refined response but you or a tuner has to set it up properly or you may overshoot or undershoot targets.

    For a big turbo I would strongly suggest getting a larger than stock MAF housing/intake. This frees up a restriction since as you get close to the limit of the stock MAF size it's harder to suck air through it (think of running while breathing through a straw versus a big hose).

    As far as the map sensor is concerned, if you plan on running more than 21 psi of boost, you should get a 3 bar map sensor.
    alex, will be hitting you guys up once i get all the parts on car...
    I have a 100-cel CAT in my DP, i have a newer ATP GT3071r with a properly ported IWG, so hopefully wont get any creep
    makes me glad i've gone the EBC now
    any info on the difference between 2-port and 3-port modes?
    Newbie FAQ My Build Thread
    From stock, to GT3071, to substantially less modded, many lessons learned!
    3" HTP | 100 Cel DP | Autotech HPFP | AP V3 - Self Tuned on E20 | JBR RSB | CPE S2 REM | JBR Shifter Bushings

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by SarcasticOne View Post
    alex, will be hitting you guys up once i get all the parts on car...
    I have a 100-cel CAT in my DP, i have a newer ATP GT3071r with a properly ported IWG, so hopefully wont get any creep
    makes me glad i've gone the EBC now
    any info on the difference between 2-port and 3-port modes?
    Sounds good. The stock turbo setup uses a restrictor pill such that the the stock solenoid can vent enough to affect boost pressure. If you're going with a bigger turbo and no restrictor pill, I strongly suggest the 3 port GS solenoid.
    Custom MazdaSpeed/Mazda MPS Tuning - VersaTune and COBB



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