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Thread: 2nd gear synchros

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
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    Default 2nd gear synchros

    HI

    Been driving lately and gear 2 seems to be harder to get into

    have the 2xs ssp installed but not sure if its my bad driving or something wrong with gearbox...

    it just seems a like a lot more effort is need to get it into second gear from first

    is there an oil or are my syncros on the way out

    car about to reach 100,000kms but hasnt had a hard life


    Thanks

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
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    Default

    2nd is a PITA in these cars... even worse with a SSP

  3. #3
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    May 2009
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    Default

    Change your box oil ,if it hasnt been done recently. It could help slightly. +1 to above .
    Previous owner may have used diff pressure on gear lever hence slight wear to synchro,s . Its a well known fact with trucks that diff drivers can effect wear to gear box .

  4. #4

    Default

    if you havent already, get a rear engine mount. you'd be surprised how much the gear shifts get better. especially seeing as you had done 100k kms on your car, the engine mount bushes may be deteriorating... having said that, if its only 2nd gear, than syncros may be dieing fresh gearbox oil will help, but its only prolonging the inevitable

  5. #5

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    rear engine mount and shifter bushings are the best 2 mods i did. rear engine mount alone helps when u loose traction and keeps the power on the ground, shifter bushing make the gear lever alot more firm and much better feeling of being connected to the car.

    I would recommend these 2 mods to anyone, stock mps or not.

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  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SarcasticOne View Post
    2nd is a PITA in these cars... even worse with a SSP

    Huh? 2nd gear is actually my fave.

  7. #7
    Join Date
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    Default

    3rd's better once you have a bigger turbo 2nd is ova to fast

  8. #8

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    The reason 2nd synchros fail more than most is that folks try to ram the shift through as fast as possible and don't give the synchro cones time to do their job and they are typically racing it away on high power settings in street light drags. Ultimately there is a cost to it.

    I see it a lot where I am working now, in Argentina, almost every car that isn't an auto (and that is most) has knackered synchro on 2nd (including the Toyota Hilux which I inherited recently), even relatively new cars. They all imagine they are Fangio here (I guess some of you might have heard of him) and drive accordingly, even though 99% of them a fraction of the true driver that Fangio was, hard on the gas, hard on the brakes, swerving all over the shop, no indicators, no patience, way too fast in hazard situations when they can't see what is coming the other way. And a road toll that matches it too - huge! We passed the body of a newly-deceased motorcyclist still lying on the road the other day after he T-boned an aging and grossly overloaded Peugeot that seemed to have been in the wrong. Sobering. But I digress.

    Depending on where you live, it is getting colder in Australia now with approaching winter and early morning shifts are always a bit tighter until the engine warms up, and the 1-2 shift is where you notice it most. My Maserati had a glorious ZF gearbox but first off in the morning, 2nd would be tight and would snick if I didn't take my time with it. Once that huge gearbox was warmed up though, it was a dream to use.
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  9. #9
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    Default

    @Doug_MPS6 i agree completely, you have to warm up that goes without saying i sit and let my car warm up for ten mins if you just get in and go it will cause excessive wear but i really shouldn't have to tell anyone this

  10. #10
    Join Date
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    Not always..
    A minute or two idle then driving gently for the first 10 minutes is the best way to warm it up.
    Idling won't warm gearbox oil very much :-)
    I double clutch first thing in the morning till I'm a few sets of lights away from home.

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  11. #11

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    I warm the gearbox oil up by slowing revving upto 5k+ rpm. So basically shifting very late. Obviously you should have the engine warmed up first. I find shifting at 3k rpm doesnt warm up the gearbox oil enough

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axspeed6 View Post
    @Doug_MPS6 i agree completely, you have to warm up that goes without saying i sit and let my car warm up for ten mins if you just get in and go it will cause excessive wear but i really shouldn't have to tell anyone this
    Pretty much the opposite of what most manufacturers and oil companies say - unless you've got a forged motor or a big bore monster with large clearances, you should be able to get in, turn the key and go - obviously don't flog it until the thermostat opens up, but 10mins of idling is just a waste of fuel/time - and as was said, won't warm up your box.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jmac View Post
    Not always..
    A minute or two idle then driving gently for the first 10 minutes is the best way to warm it up.
    Idling won't warm gearbox oil very much :-)
    I double clutch first thing in the morning till I'm a few sets of lights away from home.

    Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using Tapatalk 2
    This, minus the double clutching...
    Just watching the knock sensor go nuts when over 3000rpm with cold engine is enough for me to treat car nicely for first 10 mins

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  14. #14

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    I just let the car work it out. After starting from cold, I wait for the revs to drop. From there just gentle driving til the engine is warm

  15. #15

    Default

    Just to clarify, I never implied that one should warm up the gearbox by stationary idling or revving. I think all cars should be started and driven almost immediately, at least after the first choke has come off (or equiv ECU setting). You could idle for a day and the gearbox would barely make it to operating temperature. Just expect to make slow shifts for the first few kms.

  16. #16

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    It's all good.....I like the double clutch when cold idea though. I might try that.

    I had a car with worn 2nd gear synchros that used to be a dream to drive around when double clutched - or rev matched on the way down. Obviously when you're hard charging, there is no fix for the annoyance of worn synchros - other than holding it flat and slamming the gear in - which will lead you back to worn synchros..... It's a vicious cycle!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMOKEY View Post
    It's all good.....I like the double clutch when cold idea though. I might try that.

    I had a car with worn 2nd gear synchros that used to be a dream to drive around when double clutched - or rev matched on the way down. Obviously when you're hard charging, there is no fix for the annoyance of worn synchros - other than holding it flat and slamming the gear in - which will lead you back to worn synchros..... It's a vicious cycle!
    I only do it for the first few streets
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  18. #18

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    Well if you are just put-putting around and the driver has the energy, and is not worried about wearing out the thrust bearing, double clutching saves any wear on the synchros all together.

    Alternative is to rev match. I am comfortable driving my car after a week of getting used to the manual again - but the speed at which the revs drop between 1st and 2nd gives me the shits, as it always makes for a jerky shift. Im going to try feathering the throttle between this shift to try catch the revs better. Until all the Sure SSK gear goes in at least.

  19. #19

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    What's with all this "rev matching" talk as if it is something new or a special technique? Are you talking double declutching (DDC)? By and large it is unnecessary in modern cars, but can assist with cold boxes, and obviously for poor synchro, as discussed - after all, that's what everyone did when synchro was not around at all. Been there.

    Or do you mean something like making sure that you have the appropriate rpm on tap to suit the next gear, up or down? As should always be the case and does not require another 'special technique' such as "feathering the throttle". Where does all this stuff come from? I thought it should be in your genes, throroughly ingrained from birth.

    There is in fact a very short range between 2nd and 1st actually (see my gear speed graph plotted on another thread which shows it as shorter than the range between any other gears), and this makes it easier, not harder, to match the rpm.

    Trouble is with most people's attempts at being "sporty" and trying to DDC, mainly so they can "blip" the throttle to show how sporty they are, based on the strange but not uncommon idea that "more noise equals 'more sporty' and a better driver they are", is that they do it badly and just make the synchro have to work so much harder to recover the situation. That's actually why cars had rev counters - introduced at the time when you had to DDC.

    My question is, can't anyone manage a smooth shift anymore? Don't answer that. I drive with a 50 year old guy here who can barely find a gear and who just dumps the clutch at whatever speed in whatever gear at whatever rpm. But he is an Argentine. I feel for the transmission and bemoan the apparent loss of skills generally.

    In Australia and other 1st world countries, I blame the increasing prevalence of automatics. I think this also contributes to the overall shit driving I see. Perth is a classic case. "Just straighten the right leg and go and make sure the car is sort of pointing the right way" seems to be the usual attitude.

    I think the other reason so many people make crap shifts AND wear out synchros at seemingly unheard-of rates is that they ram the gear shift through too fast, and don't allow the synchro time to do its job, and hence they never get the revs right either.

    Even given the vagaries of cable shift linkages, you can shift these cars with one finger resting on the lever if you let the synchro work the way engineers spent years figuring it out to happen that way.

    I'm sure that Mazda also installed double synchros on the two lower gears to stop folks from ramming the shift through on high power settings. It might frustrate some who have written extensively on the issue before but there is no doubt it was done with some reason in mind.
    Last edited by Doug_MPS6; 11-05-2012 at 10:43 PM.
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  20. #20

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    Why you mad, bro?


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