Smoking K04

[Grajy]

Hi all.
Looking around, I came across this quote. Dunno if it's been here before, but I'm posting it anyways...

My name is Bryan Nickell and I am a Newbie to the mazdaforums. Some of you may have heard of BNR Supercars, some may have not.

I was approached by an RX7 person that had a Mazdaspeed 3. He told me about all their problems with turbochargers and companies offering an unreliable product. So I bought some turbocharger cores and determined cause of problems.

Since I joined S U F and also MS6F, I really saw a need that had to be met. Mazda really needs my help, but I have to be some establishment like Garrett, IHI, MHI or whatever to get contracts with Mazda. I can understand thier point but KKK isn't going to find or fix the existing problems. I went pretty high up in the Mazda Head Quarters but I have to be a big corp in order to get a manufacturing contract with them.

I guess Mazda will just have to replace millions of dollars worth of junk turbos, just to turn around and do it again. Then when warranty runs out, its on the consumer. Thats the point of them finding solutions, they hope they bandaid the real problem until its out of warranty...

Bolt Up Replacement Turbocharger Upgrade

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Originally Posted by Bryan@BNR
Hello all.

There is a big problem with the turbochargers on the MS3/6/cx7. I have taken apart a bunch of them and this is what I find...

The turbo is a KKK K04. The smoking problem is b/c of a combination of several things.

weak crank case ventilation
too much oil pressure
not enough backpressure to equalize crank case pressure
improper tolerances in turbocharger

We all know mazdas fixes. CCV update, synthetic oil change, oil restriction, and also their turbo replacement. All of which is not going to solve their issues 100%.

I take apart these turbochargers and I see something right off the bat that is waaaay out of wack. The compressor seal is nearly .012"! This tolerance is supposed to be .0025-.003".

What is happening is the boost from the compressor housing is blowing into the bearing housing through that gap and causing the oil to not flow properly to the oil pan. The oil backs up and the level rises in the bearing housing of the turbocharger until it leaks through the turbine seal which is on the exhaust side that has a gap of .010". When it seeps through that gap, it enters the exhaust system causing your smoking...

I have a fix for the issue and it requires a build up of the turbocharger. It has a total seal on the compressor side so no boost enters the crank case! Not to mension a reliability increase and performance increase.

Bryan@BNR

[Grajy]

Just got off the phone to my technical contact at Garret Australia.

Some interesting opinions from him...
*These are not my opinions, this is what he has told me himself*

The KKK K04 is a good little turbo. As long as it has clean air and clean oil, it'll last the life of the engine with no problems. MPS engines should have oil replacement every 5,000kms to stop 'turbo smoking'.

The Mazda 3 and 6 have different turbo's. One of them (he's not sure which), has a larger compressor housing than the other. Same internals, just different comp housing.

The CX-7 turbo has a smaller compressor wheel.

The leaking seals are a SECONDARY problem. They don't fail for the sake of failing. Once you run higher boost (over stock), the thrust bearings start to wear, and over time, the shaft moves horizontally, and CAUSES the seals to leak. Excessive crankcase pressure also can cause seals to leak oil.

Interesting... hmmm

[Bakis]

Very good read, i know you Jon you change your oil every 5,000km max but still its smokes :S.

If my turbo was to go, and i brought a Stage 1 BNR kit the turbo should last a life time with proper care?

[Jmac]

Mine was smoking before running more boost..
I think there is more than one reason for the smoking.

Mine initially seemed to be poor oil drainage due to PCV system, once I changed to an aftermarket breather pipe with the PTP pill it stopped.. took it back to Mazda and they replaced rocker cover and PCV with a revised setup.

All OK for a few months. Last Thursday started to smoke a bit, I have reported it to Mazda and the car is going in on Wednesday.

[Jmac]

Very good read, i know you Jon you change your oil every 5,000km max but still its smokes :S.

If my turbo was to go, and i brought a Stage 1 BNR kit the turbo should last a life time with proper care?

I think even after warranty has expired you have a very good case to have it repaired by Mazda at no cost.

[kmh001]

Bryan has established a pretty good reputation in the MPS community, particularly in terms of his understanding of the issues affecting the turbos on our cars. If you read more of Bryans comemntary it is at odds with the technical guy at Garrett, especially the part about the KO4 being a robust turbo that can last the life of the engine. When you look at the vast number of turbos Mazda have replaced under warranty you would have to assume they regret chosing this turbo because it's clearly not up to the task.

The Garrett fellow is also off the mark about the cause of the failure. I've seen no correlation between raised boost pressures and seal failure. In fact there are numerous low mileage unmodified cars (3MPS/6MPS/CX7) that have been diagnosed with leaking turbo seals. I suspect the Garrett fellow is not very well informed about the MPS turbo issue.

One final thing, there's a lot more to determining maintenance intervals than simply thinking about the turbo. I've written previously about how and why 5000km oil changes are harmful to direct injection engines with closed crankcase ventilation, so I would advise caution in taking this advice.

[Bakis]

I think even after warranty has expired you have a very good case to have it repaired by Mazda at no cost.

Jmac if we could have Mazda replace stock turbo even after a Re-flash Exhaust and Intake i would be over the moon, especially if they have give use the revised smoking related parts.
__________________________________________________ ______________________________

On another note related to smoking, i currently dont smoke i've got a the muffler delete and 2XS race pipe, and so far 0 smoke is evident. I know the exhaust mods dont cause smoking they just cause it to be more evident.

Question is since im not smoking now does that mine im not smoking at all, or i haven't removed the enough restrictions necessary to show smoke(large cat in dp)?

Ever since purchasing the car i've always looked after the turbo, yes its Tuned and driven like an MPS is designed to be driven on occasion's but i've always changed oil 5,000km (i drive mostly short trip sub 10 min) with quality products and i always drive lightly when car is cold and also give it 20 - 1 min cool down before turning off.

[Grajy]

Very good read, i know you Jon you change your oil every 5,000km max but still its smokes :S.

If my turbo was to go, and i brought a Stage 1 BNR kit the turbo should last a life time with proper care?

I read that the BnR turbo's have revised shafts and revised thrust bearings. Above stock boost can be run without risking the turbo to fail.
In short, what I was told, is that if you run more boost, you need to replace a turbo to stop it from smoking later on.

I've priced up a BnR stage 2 and 3, and am now waiting for my tax to come in... hehehehehehe

---------- Post added at 05:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:22 PM ----------

Bryan has established a pretty good reputation in the MPS community, particularly in terms of his understanding of the issues affecting the turbos on our cars. If you read more of Bryans comemntary it is at odds with the technical guy at Garrett, especially the part about the KO4 being a robust turbo that can last the life of the engine. When you look at the vast number of turbos Mazda have replaced under warranty you would have to assume they regret chosing this turbo because it's clearly not up to the task.

The Garrett fellow is also off the mark about the cause of the failure. I've seen no correlation between raised boost pressures and seal failure. In fact there are numerous low mileage unmodified cars (3MPS/6MPS/CX7) that have been diagnosed with leaking turbo seals. I suspect the Garrett fellow is not very well informed about the MPS turbo issue.

One final thing, there's a lot more to determining maintenance intervals than simply thinking about the turbo. I've written previously about how and why 5000km oil changes are harmful to direct injection engines with closed crankcase ventilation, so I would advise caution in taking this advice.

Everyone has their own thoughts on the turbo. From what I've heard and seen, I'll say, modify your MPS... but fling the stock turbo away. Whatever the problem maybe, the turbo leaks and is un exceptable...

[kmh001]

A couple of guys here in Perth have BNR turbos and I have one on the way. My original turbo is literally falling apart. There is almost enough play in the shaft to grind the ends off the blades and there is a significant amount of oil through my inlet tract. But in my case - no smoke. Strange.

[Grajy]

I've just heard too much negative stuff about the KKK.
Not just the leaking, but about being weak, unable to handle larger flow...
I was told they're a great turbo... until you start modifying your engine.
BnR for me... Now, just need the cash... anyone???

[Artemis]

This is why I prefer to keep my turbo standard with no issues. And replace my car before things start to go wrong. Someone else can have my shit when I'm finished with it.

[andy b]

Hey Mal how did you get on with the core replacement? Did you pay them or did you buy one o/s?

[Toddy22587]

My stock turbo smoked badly but when i pulled it out had no shaft play that i can remember.. Anyway BNR stage 3 is much better. Now i know i can run 18-19psi at high rpm with out over stressing the turbo

[Bakis]

I've always thought about BNR turbo but my concern was that anything over a stage 1, would result in too much stress for engine (conrods). Example if i run 19psi through out rev range, wouldn't you eventually need upgrade internal and fuel pump for it be reliable.

[Toddy22587]

Many people in America run bigger turbos with higher boost on stock engine internals and I haven't seen any fail recently. Some run over 25psi. If you have a good tune you'll be fine

[kmh001]

Hey Mal how did you get on with the core replacement? Did you pay them or did you buy one o/s?

I just paid extra for no exchange. Bryan charged USD$130 for the core which I thought was reasonable and saves me the hassle of having to ship the old one out.

[Jmac]

This is why I prefer to keep my turbo standard with no issues. And replace my car before things start to go wrong. Someone else can have my shit when I'm finished with it.

That is the problem, even standard cars are smoking like a two dollar hooker... With low or high Kms.

[Artemis]

That is the problem, even standard cars are smoking like a two dollar hooker... With low or high Kms.

Yeah but I know I'd get a replacement no questions asked should there be an issue.

[Jmac]

Yeah but I know I'd get a replacement no questions asked should there be an issue.

Its not always the turbo that is the cause, and mine was also replaced no questions asked
You dont have any idea when it could start, keeping the car standard wont avoid any issues... so you dont really have the luxury of saying "ill get rid of it before anything goes wrong".
Some start smoking with as little as 30,000Kms on the clock.

[Rayd]

Looks like one of the kind members of ozmps is actually selling a stock K04 turbo with no smokey problems!

http://www.ozmpsclub.com/forum/membe...ndom-bits.html