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Thread: How much can 2.3 T stand

  1. #41

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    There is a lot of theories going around concerning zoom zoom boom boom.

    I have one...heaps of people do.

    In a way im surprised Mazda Japan hasnt done some research into it. Then again maybe they have and are not ready to kiss and tell yet.

    One curious thing I have noticed in the Gen 2 MPS is that they have binned the Gen 1 ECU. But otherwise kept basically the same engine and internals otherwise.

    Could this be the root cause?

    My Gen 2 is tuned...will let you know if it keeps running or goes pop.

    It could be an answer all of its own possibly.
    MPS is gone. Ghey Trail enabled....Not Happy. MPS 6 to come

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleredMPS View Post
    One curious thing I have noticed in the Gen 2 MPS is that they have binned the Gen 1 ECU. But otherwise kept basically the same engine and internals otherwise.
    If you think about the way technology develops and manufacturing processes change with respect to computers, it's really no great surprise at all that it has a different ECU. I'd be disappointed if it didn't.

    But having kept exactly the same internals does add a touch of weight to the suggestion that the internals are a ok.

    Personally, I suspect the popped engines have been abused in a particular way. The throttle plate starts closing at 5500 for a reason. The engine is not built for high rpm. It's built for midrange punch and a broad tall torque curve.

    I think maybe people are aiming too far outside the original engineering perameters and maybe they should consider building engines from the ground up if you want a high rpm safe engine. It has been pointed out elsewhere that cam timing seems to become an issue above 5500 if so justifying a rebuild when trying to push them for high power at those rpm.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nasos Mazdaspeed 6 View Post
    nice to hear these good news guys!!
    we also believe here in Greece,that the main cause of the <<crack>> is the false ecu reflash!
    i believe very much in 2.3T
    but the difference between our engine and others,for example TFSI is that for Grouo Vag motors there are so many tested solutions even with any motors already broken!but now they know how with filter,exhaust and ecu reflash to be reliable!
    we need specific kits and solutions!
    i hope noone else engine to say bye bye...lately a friend of mine with a mazda 6 mps,by the ecu reflasch and the too big exhaust -76mm-(for 340 hp)the piston rods were destroyed...

    Ps.i beg your pardon if my english arent in the best level!!hope you can understand me well!!thank you ayway!!
    your english is great!!
    '
    'BRISBANE AUTOSHINE' MOBILE CAR DETAILING
    1300 35 65 95
    0406 427 269
    antony@autoshine.com.au
    www.autoshine.com.au
    GIFT VOUCHERS AND CLUB DISCOUNTS AVAILABLE**

  4. Default

    thank you dear mr Nasa!

    guys,guys take a look at this Q

    Why the Mazdaspeed3/6 engine blow up... - B15U.com

    another thing i want you to see is this one in our forum in Greece!

    Hellenic MazdaSpeedClub &bull; ??????? ??????? - MPS HP barrier explained

    what is your opinion??if you like you will make us very happy to writte your thougths also in Mazdaspeed Club!!shakespear,evil mps etc,where are you!!!???

    cant imagine a forged piston to melt on 880 degrees!!!!!!
    www . mazdaspeedclub .gr

  5. #45

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    Well I bet no one ever thought of that being the root cause for the zoom zoom boom boom.

    How could a car company stuff up something so simple.

    Might expand on this after a bit of reading around and putting some other know issues with the DISI MZR motor together.

    This is how it all pins together for me:

    1. That link shows oil hydrolock as the root of the Mazda explosion.
    a) There is a known issue with the MZR engine suddenly losing large quantities of oil (I had this issue with my SP23)
    b) The MZR engine uses a pcv (positive crank venting) system. This means that with increased boost you could be overpressurizing your sump blowing oil into your pistons not to mention the increased pressure against your turbo seals.

    2. There is also a history of oil build up in the DISI MZR intake manifold.
    a) There was a comment by MPS2NV the other week in relation to build up of crud on the MAF sensors where he talked about another sensor in the intake manifold that was covered in oil.
    b) In the link above it talked about oil residue in large quantities throughout the intake and even in the cylinders of a motor that bent rods but didnt punch the block.
    c) Apparently the DISI motor, unlike PFI motors, does not clean oil out of intake system due to its direct injecting nature.

    3. Comment is made about cruise control and certain RPM ranges leading to oil build up in the intake.
    a) Speculation has raged about the role cruise has played in a number of grenade incidents. Finally there is an explanation of sorts about why it may be a contributing factor.

    4. This performance shop makes mention on their site about the turbo seal issue on the Gen 1.
    a) The MZR motor uses a pcv system which creates a vacuum to draw oil back into sump when the engine is off throttle, apparently vacuum is not really achieved so the system is flawed to begin with.
    b) There is suggestion about pressure variance between sump pressure and downpipe pressure causing the turbo seal failures. I am less certain about this since some people have not changed to aftermarket downpipes and still had turbo seal failures.

    Put some thought into these suppositions and let me know what you all think.

    Do these guys sound like they have found the real cause?

    Have a look at these links on their website and tell me if the possible problems they list hold water:

    http://www.pt-performance.com/showPr...&cID=4&pID=260

    http://www.pt-performance.com/showPr...&cID=4&pID=228

    http://www.pt-performance.com/showPr...&cID=4&pID=227

    And this one from the post above:

    http://www.b15u.com/showthread.php?t=8245

    This could be a real solution as far as I am concerned and I am very interested in anyones thoughts on this
    Last edited by RadiantKnackers; 25-12-2009 at 10:22 PM.
    MPS is gone. Ghey Trail enabled....Not Happy. MPS 6 to come

  6. Default

    very well dear littlered!!
    but where are we going??the main and only problem is at last the oil ?
    is the pcv?
    are the forged pistons??
    is it perhaps the airflow meter????

    what is the PFI motor??

    what is it??can we talk about a mazda failure??can not believe this!!

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleredMPS View Post
    Well I bet no one ever thought of that being the root cause for the zoom zoom boom boom.

    How could a car company stuff up something so simple.

    Might expand on this after a bit of reading around and putting some other know issues with the DISI MZR motor together.

    This is how it all pins together for me:

    1. That link shows oil hydrolock as the root of the Mazda explosion.
    a) There is a known issue with the MZR engine suddenly losing large quantities of oil (I had this issue with my SP23)
    b) The MZR engine uses a pcv (positive crank venting) system. This means that with increased boost you could be overpressurizing your sump blowing oil into your pistons not to mention the increased pressure against your turbo seals.

    2. There is also a history of oil build up in the DISI MZR intake manifold.
    a) There was a comment by MPS2NV the other week in relation to build up of crud on the MAF sensors where he talked about another sensor in the intake manifold that was covered in oil.
    b) In the link above it talked about oil residue in large quantities throughout the intake and even in the cylinders of a motor that bent rods but didnt punch the block.
    c) Apparently the DISI motor, unlike PFI motors, does not clean oil out of intake system due to its direct injecting nature.

    3. Comment is made about cruise control and certain RPM ranges leading to oil build up in the intake.
    a) Speculation has raged about the role cruise has played in a number of grenade incidents. Finally there is an explanation of sorts about why it may be a contributing factor.

    4. This performance shop makes mention on their site about the turbo seal issue on the Gen 1.
    a) The MZR motor uses a pcv system which creates a vacuum to draw oil back into sump when the engine is off throttle, apparently vacuum is not really achieved so the system is flawed to begin with.
    b) There is suggestion about pressure variance between sump pressure and downpipe pressure causing the turbo seal failures. I am less certain about this since some people have not changed to aftermarket downpipes and still had turbo seal failures.

    Put some thought into these suppositions and let me know what you all think.

    Do these guys sound like they have found the real cause?

    Have a look at these links on their website and tell me if the possible problems they list hold water:

    PT-Performance.com

    PT-Performance.com

    PT-Performance.com

    And this one from the post above:

    Why the Mazdaspeed3/6 engine blow up... - B15U.com

    This could be a real solution as far as I am concerned and I am very interested in anyones thoughts on this
    There is no way that the amount of oil could cause hydraulic lock. Ever heard of mechanics doing a wet compression test. It is common to put quite an amount of oil into the cylinders to test the rings after doing a dry compression test. Never been a case of Hydraulic lock from this practice. Engines are started after the "wet" test still with oil inside and blow clouds of smoke until cleared.

    Secondly, many years ago Wynn's & STP made a de-coking product you would would pour down the carby. The stuff was like molassis, thick and sticky. You would just pour the can contents in, creating amazing smoke, again no chance of hydraulic lock.

    The oil build up in a air intake occurs on other vehicles also that are not DSI, mainly due to the huge valve overlap on modern cams caused by variable valve timing.

    Engine's blow due to stress - no other reason

  8. #48
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    I have a bent rod and broken flywheel, only mod is turbo smart BOV. Happy motoring! lol

    ---------- Post added at 11:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 AM ----------

    All this happened at once at about 2800 revs BTW

  9. #49

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    thats sucks Mitch as ur mps is hawt looking...

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by rd415 View Post
    There is no way that the amount of oil could cause hydraulic lock. Ever heard of mechanics doing a wet compression test. It is common to put quite an amount of oil into the cylinders to test the rings after doing a dry compression test. Never been a case of Hydraulic lock from this practice. Engines are started after the "wet" test still with oil inside and blow clouds of smoke until cleared.

    Secondly, many years ago Wynn's & STP made a de-coking product you would would pour down the carby. The stuff was like molassis, thick and sticky. You would just pour the can contents in, creating amazing smoke, again no chance of hydraulic lock.

    The oil build up in a air intake occurs on other vehicles also that are not DSI, mainly due to the huge valve overlap on modern cams caused by variable valve timing.

    Engine's blow due to stress - no other reason
    Yeah I remember both wet testing and that Wynn's goo.

    I was interested last night so I went hunting for the orginal thread in Mazdaspeed forums from this PT Performance mob.

    I am not sure how old that extract is that made it to the other forum but I found the thread.

    It would seem that they still think that there is issues with the oil system in the DISI engine, but have also uncovered several other contributing factors as well.

    Some of the issues relate to stress factors as well.

    They are still in the process of confirming all of them but there were some interesting findings on their part.

    They seem to have gone further with this than anyone else I can think of anyway, have a read.

    Why does your motor blow? - Mazdaspeed Forums

    This is a really really long thread but its sound in my opinion.

    You should read this too Mitch...Could explain alot.

    Remember folks, this thread also states that you dont have to be modded for this issue, but that its a design flaw.
    Last edited by RadiantKnackers; 26-12-2009 at 11:16 AM.
    MPS is gone. Ghey Trail enabled....Not Happy. MPS 6 to come

  11. #51
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    My current theory is that new cars are made powerful but on a budget that pushes the boundry of the materials strenghts. All my issues happened at once, I wouldn't expect a dual mass flywheel letting go to effect my conrod, however that slight second of no load and big hit of inertia could possibly have bent that rod. Looks like I will have more photos to post

  12. #52
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    Hydraulic lock is still out of the question despite the opinions. The car would be blowing clouds of smoke prior to letting go - it would also be noticeable due to vacuum loss that there was a loss of power. There would be so many signs of that it wouldn't be conjecture.

    I still believe the problem is that the engine are built to pretty close to perfect to produce maximum performance (just like jap motorcycle engines) no lee-way for added stress and loads. I don't mean engine mods, I simply mean that driving too hard, rods fatigue after continual abuse and simply at some stage give up.

  13. #53

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    I dont know mate.

    They are not talking about a continuous symptom, more a sudden destructive one.

    The amount of experimentation and the results speak pretty highly for them.

    The way the findings slot in with know events surrounding DISI engine failures is pretty convincing too.

  14. #54
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    You would need a lot of oil to be a sudden destructive shot. I don't believe there is a possible way to get the amounts of oil required to cause hydraulic lock.
    All engines I have rebuilt with hydraulic lock were caused by water and in all cases exploded on start up

    For that to happen there would be signs before the BOOM

  15. #55
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    Its sounds more like an injection phase fault, I agree that hydro lock is out of the question as a massive amount of oil would be needed to cause the damage, not saying that these engines dont have an issue with oil consumption.

  16. #56

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    I still think it is the transition from open to closed loop timing. I believe it is to do with the ECU. Why would Mazda change it? And CT have noticed the flash side of things for the Gen1 can totally wreck the ECU.

    I've noticed hesitations from cruising to opening the throttle. I'm looking at starting to log them on the DH to see what these hesitations are or could be.

  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by rd415 View Post
    You would need a lot of oil to be a sudden destructive shot. I don't believe there is a possible way to get the amounts of oil required to cause hydraulic lock.
    All engines I have rebuilt with hydraulic lock were caused by water and in all cases exploded on start up

    For that to happen there would be signs before the BOOM
    Quote Originally Posted by MPS2NV View Post
    Its sounds more like an injection phase fault, I agree that hydro lock is out of the question as a massive amount of oil would be needed to cause the damage, not saying that these engines dont have an issue with oil consumption.
    In the tests PT Performance did, it showed that as little as 80cc was enough to cause lock in a cylinder under power. But if you want to talk quantity, I once had 1-1/2 litres disappear in a week. And that sort of loss has been documented in both SP23 and MPS engines before, here and in the states.

    They also believe small quantities of oil vapour or liquid were responsible for common events of knock back retard in map transition phases.

    Before you question have a read of the whole thread and what these guys did...its pretty comprehensive.
    Last edited by RadiantKnackers; 26-12-2009 at 04:00 PM.
    MPS is gone. Ghey Trail enabled....Not Happy. MPS 6 to come

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleredMPS View Post
    ... I once had 1-1/2 litres disappear in a week. And that sort of loss has been documented in both SP23 and MPS engines before, here and in the states.
    Not to knock you in any way, just wanting to put a reality check in :

    That sort of loss has been documented with all sorts of engines from all different manufacturers for as long as mankind has been making them.

    My understanding is that that means something is dreadfully wrong. It really doesn't matter if you have an MZR or a toyota.

    Excessive oil consumption is often symptomatic of an abused engine, is it not?

  19. #59

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    While it's true that a small percentage of owners will abuse their car to destruction, it's also true that there is something else causing problems and blown engines for some MPS owners.

    For anyone who has trawled through the copious amount of info out there on many different forums the evidence is clear and there is no doubt that the problem is associated with map transition. The thing that remains to be determined is whether it simply coincides with map transition or is caused by it. There could be an error in the code, a defect in the code, or oil vapour reducing the octane enough to induce knock, or even something that hasn't yet been thought of. Quite possibly it's more than one thing occurring at the same time.

    In my own experience I've had the death rattles several times, usually on cruise control, always at low rpm and always with a thick cloud of smoke ejected from the exhaust. I have no doubt that I have been a bee's dick away from having my stock engine blow while the car was being driven like a nana and under very little stress.

    There was a flurry of PCM updates released throughout 2006 and into 2007 and the discussions I had with a Mazda engineer around that time indicated they were trying to resolve a number of engine operating issues including the cruise control exploders and the sudden power loss syndrome that was deemed a safety hazard (anyone remember that one?). It's also worth remembering that not all blown engine victims are forum members. There are more blown engines that we don't get to hear about.

    Like any problem with an elusive cause, people will advance all kinds of theories and that's perfectly natural, one of them eventually has to be right, however I agree with Russell and I don't think the hydro lock theory has any credibility. Meanwhile, I think it's significant somehow that not all MPS's are equally affected.

    If you do enough reading and research you'll discover that virtually all direct petrol injection engines are experiencing problems of some sort or another and it's worthwhile looking at this in a broader context. Porsche owners are having lots of issues and I read about a GT3 owner who used an old American V8 trick and set up his engine to have the exhaust extract the crank case gasses, which apparently eliminated his oil control and internal contamination issues. The risk with this setup is that he might blow more visible smoke from the exhaust, but at least his inlet tract stays clean, his fuel retains its octane number and his engine doesn't blow.

    In the mean time I'm using the adaptive part of the PCM to my advantage by the way I drive the car, by getting on it enough to keep the PCM out of nana mode I get no stutter, no hesitation, no death rattles and little knock retard. Whether that's because the nana maps have bugs, the transition is buggy, or because nana driving causes the engine to choke on its own oil I don't know, but I am convinced that the engine is safer. The only catch is higher fuel consumption.

    Gone to Volvo


  20. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nexus View Post
    Not to knock you in any way, just wanting to put a reality check in :

    That sort of loss has been documented with all sorts of engines from all different manufacturers for as long as mankind has been making them.

    My understanding is that that means something is dreadfully wrong. It really doesn't matter if you have an MZR or a toyota.

    Excessive oil consumption is often symptomatic of an abused engine, is it not?
    Its alright mate...Maybe I should have put in that the car had done 6000km when this happened.

    It was also the only time it ever happened.
    MPS is gone. Ghey Trail enabled....Not Happy. MPS 6 to come

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