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Thread: How much can 2.3 T stand

  1. #21

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    The highest we've seen is 285kw atw WITHOUT meth -> 330kw at the flywheel (Mazdaspeed6). This car was built over a period of months, so it didn't just get a whole bunch of upgrades done on one day and did one dyno run. It obviously lasted all those dyno runs and street tunes, as well as being driven daily without an issue when they reached that figure. Apart from the cases where they've overboosted (psi over high 20's), I haven't heard of a single case where the engine blew at WOT. They all went at low RPM, high load. If they all died at high RPM WOT, then I'd say internals are weak. Catastrophic engine failure at low RPM suggests to me it was something else rather than pure mechanical failure. Happy to be proven wrong though.

    Also DI is not a new technology, it's was even used by Mitsubishi Galants in the 90's and there are obviously some tuned versions of those (based on google), so it's not like there's no experience tuning them.

    We could argue about this all day, but the proof is there are tuned MPS' running over 230 kw without meth being driven daily. The fact that some cars have gone pop doesn't prove they're not capable of it, it only shows they weren't done right. I'm following 2 recent cases tuned by P3 of daily driven Mazdaspeed6's running GT2871 (pushing 300-330 awhp) that have yet to have any issues. By mid year there will be at least 10+ guys running big turbos (2871, 3071 and 3076's) so we'll have the proof we need to show what they are capable of.
    Nuliaj: Hatches are only really half a car anyway.
    shinslinger66: And you forgot to add that they are also a girls car!

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuliaj View Post
    ... If they all died at high RPM WOT, then I'd say internals are weak. Catastrophic engine failure at low RPM suggests to me it was something else rather than pure mechanical failure. Happy to be proven wrong though....

    Also DI is not a new technology, it's was even used by Mitsubishi Galants in the 90's and there are obviously some tuned versions of those (based on google), so it's not like there's no experience tuning them.

    ... The fact that some cars have gone pop doesn't prove they're not capable of it, it only shows they weren't done right. ...
    I'm with you there
    Agreed re: low rpm high load vs WOT high rom
    Re: DI - may not be entirely new tech, but there isn't exactly loads of them around. I'm tentatively pointing the finger at the thermal stresses DI imposes on the pistons...

  3. Default

    I have been running over 300whp now for around 3 months and all is well. The car has never run better. With respect to big turbos there is some speculation that the 28/30 series have more inherent risk than the bigger 35s due to when they spool up. Power delivery at higher rpm seems to be safer. A lot of those who have popped reported that it was happening early in the boost cycle. This happens because of limitations of the CDFP instantly delivering large amounts of fuel at low rpms. Bigger HP means you should perhaps consider delaying you boost a little.


  4. #24

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    The 2871's are suppose to spool just a couple of hundred rpm later than stock with 3071 about 500rpm and 3076 1000rpm later. I think I'll be going 3071. Any bigger than 3076 just doesn't seem worth it with the engine only redlining at 6500rpm, you'll finally get on boost and into the powerband and have to shift up. Those 35 series turbos only really start to shine with higher displacement 6 cylinders that rev past 7000rpm i.e. Skylines and Supras, not our low displacement 4 cylinder.

    The two ideas I've read so far regarding the reason for low rpm pop, is as you've stated fuel delivery being one, and the other is the delay between open/closed loop transition. Either way, something is wrong with the car from factory as this condition can lead to stock cars going pop.
    Nuliaj: Hatches are only really half a car anyway.
    shinslinger66: And you forgot to add that they are also a girls car!

  5. Default

    I agree with the comments on dying around 6000 rpm. The only ecu maps that are really interesting me are those that will open up the throttle all the way to redline. The only reason they are shutting down is due to the limitation of the stock turbo. To me it seems with the full power map what you lose at one end you will gain at the other

  6. #26

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    I mean to say that unlike say STIs or Evos, 6500rpm redline is just too low to go really big turbo even with the throttle plate staying fully open to redline. 3000 rpm power band (say 3076 which comes on at 3500rpm to 6500rpm) is not as useful as a ~4000 rpm power band (2871 from 2750rpm to 6500rpm) which is much better than the 3000 rpm band with stock turbo (2500rpm to 5500rpm). I'd love to see upgraded high lift cams and a way to increase the redline safely on the MPS before I considered anything that spooled later than 3500 rpm.
    Nuliaj: Hatches are only really half a car anyway.
    shinslinger66: And you forgot to add that they are also a girls car!

  7. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuliaj View Post
    Not a good platform...yet. Don't forget that one of the reasons we all bought the MPS is cause we don't want to look like ricers/bogans and attract police attention. My short term aim will be 400hp (approx 300hp atw) and it won't need any of the above listed items except maybe fuel pump. AWD ftw


    ---------- Post added at 07:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuliaj View Post
    The fact that some cars have gone pop doesn't prove they're not capable of it, it only shows they weren't done right.
    Do you mean to say, "The fact that some cars have NOT gone pop, doesnt prove they're not capable of it..."???

  8. #28

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    I re-read that line, sounds correct to me To clarify - The fact that some cars have gone pop, does not prove that the engine is not capable of 400 hp.

  9. #29
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    Just a thought - following on from the DI thermal stresses thought...

    lower RPM, high boost would be creating maximum thermal stress on the top of the piston; Cooling effect as fuel is sprayed on the piston top and at lower rpm there's more time for that to stress the piston.

    rapidly changing temp at the surface of the piston....
    Last edited by Nexus; 15-03-2009 at 02:49 PM. Reason: typo

  10. Default

    so,firts af all,we believe in 2.3T
    Is there really a need to go to 400 HP? If you want to spend a good AU$20-25k on a forged reinforced crank, bearings, pullies, forged rods and heads, fuel pump, FMIC, by all means go ahead. 400 HP would have torque steer pulling you all over the road, so straight line starts would be a nightmare.

    IMO I would rather stick with 270-280 HP, and reduce unsprung weight to get off the line quicker, and without massively reducing the lifespan of your MPS.

    For 300kW (400HP) atw, get something with that stock. It might even be cheaper than an MPS + mods cost. In Australia (i hate to say it) but I'd buy a Ford XR8T or Holden Commodore HSV. And if i wanted to mod a car up to 400 HP, i'd go buy a stock Evo 9, and mod it to hell - knowing that this car is tried and tested at that level. IME, the MPS is not a good platform to mod to the level you're after.
    dear Wardski,dear members,in Greece the EVO costs 60.000 EUROS!!!!!!the Mps 6 42.000 Euros!!!the Corvette zo6 91.000 e!!!
    a lot of evos are broken approximatelly reaching 350 hp+!
    a lot of TFSI s etc!the cost and the things you describe to raise the power of the 2.3t doesnt requires so much!
    reaching 400 hp for example in my opinion requires:another turbo,piston rods,a very good e management,FMIC,fuel pump,good intake!
    and i kindly ask you all...who seriously worked on 2.3t?in Europe almost noone!they all preffer tfsi s which the power raises to 400 hp from 260 hp and with inormous solutions and many engines sacrifised on that cause!!
    i allready read here about engines with 312 whp!isnt that excellent and a prove about the reliability of the 2.3t?
    dont forget that we are talking about stage 1 and not stage 2 or stage 3!!
    no engine can survive on those levels without changing the insides of it!!!

    agree with the comments on dying around 6000 rpm. The only ecu maps that are really interesting me are those that will open up the throttle all the way to redline. The only reason they are shutting down is due to the limitation of the stock turbo. To me it seems with the full power map what you lose at one end you will gain at the other
    no need dear cosmic mps to get more power beyond 6.000!
    its a turbo engine!
    in Greece,reflashing the ecu,opened 100% the throttle plate and raising the cut to 7800,we got 3 broken engines...

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nasos Mazdaspeed 6 View Post
    in Greece,reflashing the ecu,opened 100% the throttle plate and raising the cut to 7800,we got 3 broken engines...
    Did i read that right, 7800rpm??? Thats a ALOT of revs for a motor that has a stock 6900rpm rev limit (iirc)

  12. Default

    you really did read right kblume!!

  13. #33

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    Electronically increasing the car to rev limit/cut isn't the hard part (relatively speaking), it's making sure the engine can actually handle it without going boom. It would be nice to have a 7k redline

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nexus View Post
    Just a thought - following on from the DI thermal stresses thought...

    lower RPM, high boost would be creating maximum thermal stress on the top of the piston; Cooling effect as fuel is sprayed on the piston top and at lower rpm there's more time for that to stress the piston.

    rapidly changing temp at the surface of the piston....
    And following on from that, get some kind of coating on the top of the piston....? Ceramics?

  15. #35

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    So following on on the engine popping issue, one of the P3 tuned 28's went pop earlier this month - again low rpm high load. It got me thinking about the issue and I remembered something about the hill climb mode. The car under load seems to perform differently than on a straight road, so I'm wondering if there's some other map/trigger that tunes (standback or flash) are not taking into account.

  16. #36
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    Nuli ... flat road

  17. #37

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    I don't mean to say that the cars weren't on a flat road, just that there could be a section of the ecu that hasn't been taken into account when tuned/modded.

  18. #38

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    This was posted on both MSF and M6C, but seems to have more discussion on M6C. Talks about the thrust bearing failure being the potential cause of all the engine failure going around. Anyone with a bit more engine knowledge able to provide some comments?

    Thrust Bearing Failure/Clearance Is The ANSWER - Mazda6 / Atenza

    Interesting note, I never knew manual cars in the US had to clutch in to start their cars.

  19. Default

    so guys...getting approximately 380-400 hp doesnt effect the ionternals at any badly way??in Greece there are many opinions and arguments about it!!the idea that foes round round in our minds is that noway can without forged pistons or rods the 2.3 T to survive!!somewher i readed that we have forged pistons adn rods...but this is far from true??

    ---------- Post added at 10:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:04 PM ----------

    until now in Greece most mazdaspeeds are at 320-340 hp without other mods!!
    Ecutek insists that over 315 whp we need fuel pump and we have no reason to have different opinion...to get over from 340 hp we need to put a larger turbo,fuel pump, AND THATS IT??????seems to me to good to be true for maximum reliability!!
    i almost envy Audi S3 with stock internals to go easily at 400hp without issues!!
    www . mazdaspeedclub .gr

  20. #40
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    Yeah, but forged internals are no good if the components supporting them are crap. A set of Cosworth bearings is probably where I'd start before heading into aftermarket rods, pistons or cranks.

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