Smoking and Turbo Seals

[08mps]

I installed the CPE TBE on my MPS at home with a mate, cant see how it would even be possible to damage the seals during the install??? The seals are INSIDE the turbo housing, no way they could be damaged when fitting the downpipe....

my thoughts exactly plain and simple **** turbo from factory how many other late model turbo cars do you see running around with this issue standard or not

[kblume]

has anyone had this problem on their 08 models or does the 08 model ahve the revised parts already?

My 2008.5 had minor smoking at idle after installing the CPE TBE, but changing from 5w30 to 10w40 oil and adding the CPE XcelNANO SRI has gotten rid of it..

[Nexus]

For those interested in further clarifying this, please respond to the poll and state your case. Please no "it's just a bad part" without backing this up with some information.

re: can't damage the seals because they're inside the housing - I have recently in a clients laptop seen bearing damage in a hard disk due to a slight mis-alignment of a retaining mechanism. It wasn't obvious when things are screwed down, nothing seemed excessively resistant but that small misalignment caused the bearings to squeal when the system was turned on or the laptop to vibrate when gentle pressure was placed on the outside of the case, where one would often rest ones wrist. I never would have thought it possible, but it seems it is.

It got escalated to me because the lower level techs were all scratching their heads...like....????

The bearing is enclosed in the center of the casing, the casing is quite rigid; billet aluminium and the only portion of the bearing visible sits nowhere near anything that could foul it.

Forgive me for not being convinced the seals can't be damaged in service because they are inside a housing.

Yes, I am playing devils advocate a little here, but this is simply to try and get clear data, as this is something that has not really been clarified in other discussions I've seen.

The backpressure explanation seems plausible.

I have to say - if this is a common widespread issue in many MPS, I would not expect the vehicles to meet their advertised emissions, making them unroadworthy and placing mazda in all kinds of sh*t if it can be demonstrated to be the case.

I am not convinced it is that widespread because I fail to see how this could go on for a long period without degrading and becoming an obvious fault.

[shakespeare]

No problems for me (yet) Oct 06 build, registered Feb 07 with 43,000kms on the clock, only engine mode was the CPE CAI at around 30,000kms am doing the exhaust next, most likely corksport TBE, Apologies for hijacking but any recommendations from anyone? ie. should I do the mod before the warranty expires in the hope that it will produce smoking???

[remotegt]

i aont got enough km's on my 08 to find out. only at 13500km at the moment

[Nexus]

No problems for me (yet) Oct 06 build, registered Feb 07 with 43,000kms on the clock, only engine mode was the CPE CAI at around 30,000kms am doing the exhaust next, most likely corksport TBE, Apologies for hijacking but any recommendations from anyone? ie. should I do the mod before the warranty expires in the hope that it will produce smoking???

Not really hijackthing there, that's part of what we are trying to figure out. My theory at present is that this should be apparent during any emissions test. Not sure how practical that is, hoping some of the mechanic types can weigh in on that.

[Jmac]

Ive got no issues yet. 07 Build, 35,xxxKMS.
Stock exhaust..

[MattMPS3]

Would engine coolant show up in an emission test though, aside from the plumes of smoke immediately apparent when the seals have failed I dont know what sort of result you would achieve, I can understand how oil would foul up sensors and cats altering the basic emissions from the vehicle.

[kmh001]

My understanding is that emissions tests would not detect anything in the case of leaking seals if secondary combustion is occurring in the cats. Also as Matt has suggested, a coolant leak in the turbine housing would be unlikely to register anything on an emissions test given that ethylene glycol burns mostly into water molecules.

Emissions tests sample hydrocarbon (HC) which is unburnt fuel, and carbon monoxide (CO). A good testing machine will also sample oxygen and carbon dioxide, not because they are pollutants, but because comparing the ratio of O2 and CO2 to HC and CO allows a more detailed analysis.

I don't think the sniffer is looking for the right things in this case. And since we're discussing emissions tests, it's a given in the testing world that cats mask a lot of the nasties that could be coming out of an engine.

Here's an example:
"Reading HC and CO at the tailpipe to diagnose emission problems may not give you the complete picture because the catalytic converter "masks" many problems by significantly lowering HC and CO in the exhaust. "

This is not really my area of expertise, but I suspect you could put a smoking MPS onto a sniffer and pass the test. Although it obviously wouldn't pass the visual test.

It would seem that paradoxically, a discussion of emissions testing strengthens the theory that the cats are masking what could be a widespread problem.

[Nexus]

If it's oil leaking, I'd expect fairly quick thick smoke symptoms, cat poisoned and O2 sensor fouled + foul smell. I doubt there'd really be much chance of masking this for any length of time.

If coolant, I wouldn't be expecting much smell from ethylene glycol and water. Burn't plastic smell doesn't strike me as consistent with a coolant leak. I could be wrong.

With regards to emissions, presuming this is coolant leak - I would expect reduced CAT temperatures, potentially resulting in markedly higher oxides of nitrogen in the exhaust. While the HC / CO / O2 ratios are the main things to measure burn characteristics, elevated NO levels in exhaust might be a good indicator of the CATS efficiency which in turn might help indicate an otherwise undetected coolant leak at the turbo. Not to mention the obvious additional H2O.

I am wondering if anyone noticed coolant or oil being consumed prior to the turbo seal failure becoming an evident fault?

[TallDan]

Mine is Nov 07 build, was noticeable early on in it's life (April 08 Dyno Day in Brisbane) but then "went away" for a while. Now at 27,000km, and it's an issue. I have people back off from the back of my car in traffic, was also sitting at idle in a cloud of my own smoke the other week. Heading to my dealer the next couple of weeks to see if it's worthy of a warranty replacement.

Car is stock except for SRI/CAI.

---------- Post added at 07:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:26 PM ----------

I am wondering if anyone noticed coolant or oil being consumed prior to the turbo seal failure becoming an evident fault?

I have a feeling I could be going through coolant, normal running temps have been noticeably higher (on the Scangauge) over the last 6 weeks or so , which has coincided with the increased symptoms. Must admit I haven't even looked at the oil yet.

[kmh001]

Do a google search on the chemical composition of engine coolant. There are all sorts of things in it that would produce a noxious odour when combusted ie burning plastic smell, but none of these things are sampled during an emissions test.

[Wardski]

Do a google search on the chemical composition of engine coolant. There are all sorts of things in it that would produce a noxious odour when combusted ie burning plastic smell, but none of these things are sampled during an emissions test.

For those with dodgy aftermarket exhausts, beware. If not installed with expansion in mind, that plastic burning smell could be your exhaust touching something. I've measured my CES system, and it grows almost 15mm in length from cold -> hot...

[2XS]

The emissions thing.....Why would you put 2 cats in? To meet new emissions laws. Any sign of dropped emissions would result in Mazda flagging the car to be checked (stock or not) If you fit an AM exhaust you'll probably get only 1 cat, hence the newly aquirred smoke issues.

The turbo seals.....If they were as fragile as people say, it might happen. But they spin up to 100,000rpm. Any sign of failure would result very with a very quick failure. I've had this problem with other cars (just not the MPS, yet.) Mine failed becuase of repeated 30+ psi (read abuse). You'd have to be brutal in fitting an exhaust to damage the seals. CES have a unique "tongue" on their split dump pipe, which is fed into the housing, hence the careful nature in fitting.

Try changing the oil to a different grade, the fact that some of you have changed the gearbox oil (for the "wong wong" noise) leads me to believe the engine oil could be the same.

If your car is smoking only slightly have it checked by a professional, if its not the turbo, it could be a number of things. Restricted air filters will result in the engine/turbo working harder to draw the air and will most likely suck oil from the rocker cover, this is why most stock turbo cars with over 7 psi of boost have catch cans fitted. Repeated use of dirty air filters and high boost pressure will cause the oil consumption too.

What do the "smoking" cars use in the way of fluids? Oil? Coolant? Both? Something else?

[Wardski]

...Try changing the oil to a different grade, the fact that some of you have changed the gearbox oil (for the "wong wong" noise) leads me to believe the engine oil could be the same.

I fully agree with you mate.

I've had no "smokin" or other issues with the top of the range fully Synth Castrol Edge Sport 0W-40 which is a good start. Best oil i've ever used to be honest, and I highly recommend it. If you've been using 50/50 synth/mineral oil and changing every 10,000km, then stop right there. Changing every 10,000km is absolutely insane for a performance vehicle, and as a result, you'll have a lot of carbon deposits which will give you grief at around the 40,000km mark (thats only frigging 4 oil changes in 40,000km!). Every day joes out there forget that carbon build-up in oil prevents the heat escaping, and as a result not only do you get more wear, but a much hotter motor. The added friction from the carbon also heats up your piston heads, which transfers the heat to the rods also.

Ok, now im off topic.........

I've been using the Castrol Edge Sport stuff since it was released, and when I changed over from 50/50 synth/mineral (the stock Mazda $hit) I did 2 quick changes initially to "flush" (@ every 2000km) and after that I went back to 4000-5000km changes. Doing this gets reduces the carbon deposits left over from the 50/50 oil real quick. After I dropped the last lot of oil @ approx 4000km, it still looked like new (hardly any carbon deposits - eg. darkening of the oil)

I also HIGHLY recommend that if you've flashed or piggied your MPS to get more grunt, then you'll wanting to be changing fluids to the high performance stuff and changing more frequently (say every 3000-5000km) to reduce wear & tear, which will extend the life of an upgraded 2.3ltr motor.

[teedee]

Good post Ward

very good suggestions

I think I will change oil as I have been changing every 5000 but using what Mazda put in.

I like the idea of flushing the system

[Wardski]

Good post Ward

very good suggestions

I think I will change oil as I have been changing every 5000 but using what Mazda put in.

I like the idea of flushing the system

For my intermediate oil changes, I was doing it myself, but for $60 (and I supply the oil) I've had APC in underwood do the oil change & filter for me (and tighten the chassis while they're draining the oil)

Makes sense really. Whats $120 every 5000km when you could be doing far more damage to a $16k motor.

[duglet]

I have always changed my oil at 5000kms...and my car is really stock.

I have now completed over 80000kms and no problems.

Mazda do the service every 10K...and i do the 5K myself inbetween...i have told Mazda this..as they always ask me why my oil is so clean.

I use the same stuff as Wardski...and find it to be the best around.

As said...if you cant do it yourself....then pay the $50 or so...its worth it in the long run.

Happy Motoring
duglet

[Taz]

I am sorry for steering off the main topic but I have a couple of questions regarding the oil change;

What do you guys recommend for people who are doing less than 10,000kms between service interval? So we change our oil every three months or so?

Also, I have been using Motul 8100xcess 5W40 since the first oil change, not sure if this is a good enough oil for our engine.

Thanks guys. Very informative thread, by the way!!

[shakespeare]

Hey Taz,
There was some discussion awhile back on oil changes here

Intermittent Servicing

In relation to turbo seals, I spoke to my Mazda dealer when I was having my diff bolts done and they have had 2 cases of a stock MPS 3 and 6 coming in smoking and needing the turbo seals fixed. He advised me that if I was concerned I could always take out a years extended warranty prior to my factory warranty expiring, about $400 or so.
Cheers
Chris